Unless you want to pull the motor to remove the shafts, just pull the belt off the balance shaft gears. Same power result, but without the weight reduction

Doing what you're describing with the IM is essentially making your own Blacktrax spacer, which will give you gains similar to the last dyno chart on the right side of this page: http://blacktrax.net/products/IntakeSpacer_Manifold.html

 

Well, the motor is coming out anyway so it's not a big issue. The whole top end is coming off, so i figured while the intake was off i would mess around with it a little. :biggrin:

Looks like somewhat decent gains. I'll need a tune FOR SURE if i decide to go through with it.

 

I have an H22 modified like that, I never tuned it when it was on my last build, but for what I see on those graphs it probably is worth your time.

 

I think i'm gonna buy another stock IM from another member on here, then fuck around with it. For $75, i don't have much to lose.

Their has yet to be an independent dyno compairison of removing the butterfly valves vs the OEM manifold. I'd look into some IM theory before I started messing with plenum spacers and what not.

I was reading up on a thread on H-T that Blake posted in two years ago. I was hoping to get a little insight from a few N/A gurus on here, any advice is welcomed though. By removing the butterfly valves, i'm increasing the air velocity quite a bit inside the manifold- but i'm not really messing with the overall volume much.

I will undoubtedly get my car tuned directly afterward, the thing i would be most afraid of is shifting my air/fuel ratio with the difference in airflow over the stock tune. The last thing i want is a MASSIVE rich/lean condition on any point of the map- from what i've read, that immanent.

 

I'm thinking about removing my stock iab spacer and replace it with a blacktrax one.

 

Their has yet to be an independent dyno compairison of removing the butterfly valves vs the OEM manifold. I'd look into some IM theory before I started messing with plenum spacers and what not.

 

From what I've heard, removing the butterflies would lose you some low end torque, but your midrange to top end would increase.

 

Maybe, maybe not. You'll loose the butterfly valves that will loose low end torque but also think about the length of runner you'd be getting rit of. That could ether be good for top end, midrange or low end. IM theory is a bitch.

Something to be noted is the fact that more and more people are running modified OEM manifold on their high HP set-ups. But then again, their isn't many options for us H22 guys. I might dig into my OEM manifold and see what happens vs the Euro R.

 

take the plate out completely.

 

Think that's the best way to go Blake? I was thinking just modifying the stock plate.

How much gain is there with the blacktrax spacers? More volume on boosted setup makes more power or is that applicable to n/a only?

I dunno... looks like decent gains. Maybe i'll just blade the stock plate.

 

What about stacking up two spacers, people have done it before, some dyno graphs would be nice!

 

A while back just for the hell of it I installed a y in the vacuum line going to the actuator that opens and closes the valve at the air intake input .
I then ran a vacuum line from that y to the actuator that controls the secondary runners which caused the runners to change over about 500 rpm sooner . After doing this mod , I went for a drive and found that I lost mid rpm power so based on my little experiment I would say don't remove the valve . If anyone else wants to try this little experiment out all you need is 3' of hose and a y connector .

 

i plan on doing this sometime this winter, and im going to plug the holes that the butterfly rod went through with jb weld and port match my manifold and head.

 

How much gain is there with the blacktrax spacers? More volume on boosted setup makes more power or is that applicable to n/a only?

 

im not going to suggest it for no reason...

 

Oh come on, i know you like to post useless information an mislead people!


/sarcasm.


Worth a shot, what the hell. I'll pop off the plate and see what happens. Thanks Blake, appreciate the guidance.

 

I removed mine, and ported my stock im, if my numbers meant anything. Free mods ftw.

 

Stacking blacktrax spacers does not increase plenum volume; it will increase the runner length which would in turn move your powerband down a little bit. Remove the spacer plate completely on a h22. Plate stacking would be better for an h23 since they don't rev as high.

 

I was under the impression that the spacers were just hollow and increased the plenum volume. Maybe your right though.

Also, check out runners and pulse tuning. The basic way to look at it is like you did, but this is wrong. It all depends on what pulse you tune for. You could be right in this case, but like I said earlier, IM theory/tuning is a bitch.

 

I think i'm gonna have to be the guinea pig for this one. I may go ahead and buy the other stock intake to play with.

 

I think i'm gonna have to be the guinea pig for this one. I may go ahead and buy the other stock intake to play with.

Uh... it has been done already.

 

If you pull the plate out completely, do you need to get shorter bolts? Hell, if thats the best way to do it I'll just yank it out tomorrow lol. I have a friend with tuning equipment and we've been messing with our basemaps so it will give me a chance to see how this would effect the engine

 

Any updates?

 

Yeah, I'd like to see a comparison stock vs the removed plate.

 

Well Im Building an h23 right now and I have 2 spare manifolds. What I plan to do is remove the stock butterflies and then grab the other spacer from my other manifold and stack them.

Plus I'll be hittin the dyno soon so who knows

 

I'll have to see what my car kicks out on the dyno once i get it done. I ended up ditching the butterfly valves, then smoothing out the ragged edges and casting flaws on the inside of the intake manifold. I'm still waiting on my heat-shield gaskets this week to finish port-matching everything.

I'm anxious to see what it puts down for power. The list isn't that great, i'd be happy with 180hp at the wheels.

 

When you take it out do you need new bolts? Will this give you a CEL? You should do a write up on taking the valves out and removing the plates with pics.

 

Lol! It's a little late now... here's what i did, in super-basic form:

-Removed vacuum diaphragm on the end of the butterfly shaft
-Pulled the endcaps off of the ends of the shaft that the butterflies bolt to
-Unbolted all of the butterflies from the rod
-Unscrewed the end of the rod from the retainer
-Pulled out the rod
-Drilled/tapped the holes on the ends for sealing
-Cut two bolts the appropriate lengths to fill the holes without protruding into the passage
-Put a small amount of sealer on the bolts, toward the head of the bolts
-Threaded the bolts in and tightened them up to seal the ends of the holes
-Checked for leaks, and bolted it back into place
-Cap off any vacuum lines that lead to the butterfly actuator
-Remove the unneeded crap off the back of the intake manifold

:emthup: Cheap & easy way to make a plenum spacer.

I bought an extra butterfly assembly from acidcrakker in case this doesn't work out- i kept all of the other shit JUST IN CASE. This probably won't do much but lose a little power on the bottom end, which may make driving a car with an ultra-lightweight flywheel and a stiff clutch a pain in the ass... but i'm over it. :dozingoff:

 

wow, sounds easy.

from what ive read on NA manifold theory is that the size of the runners is dictated by i think 50-60% of the volume in the cylinder, and if the math is all done, the h22 manifold is grossly oversized.

someone chime in on this if they know, thats why blake was saying remove it altogether...

 

wow, sounds easy.

from what ive read on NA manifold theory is that the size of the runners is dictated by i think 50-60% of the volume in the cylinder, and if the math is all done, the h22 manifold is grossly oversized.

someone chime in on this if they know, thats why blake was saying remove it altogether...

I'm not quite sure. By removing it, you're reducing plenum volume- more than anything, that might affect your low-end torque i would assume.

Still waiting to see what others have to say at this point...

 

I took my plate out completely, it took about 5mins.

 

i think the im looks better sitting a little lower in the engine bay once the plate is out. notice any difference in power?

thanks for the thumbs up man!

 

I think i have done what you guys are talking about. I cut out the middle of a butterfly plate and welded up the holes that hold the butterflies in place. I went around with a dremmel and smmothed out the plate. I got 5 extra long bolts and stacked it on top of my other butterfl plate. All it does is increase the intake volume. On a turbo thats good. On NA really is pointless. I only did it because i had so many extra parts laying around and my motor out of the car for about half a year.
sam-r450 UP.Browser/6.2.3.8 (GUI) MMP/2.0

 

I think i have done what you guys are talking about. I cut out the middle of a butterfly plate and welded up the holes that hold the butterflies in place. I went around with a dremmel and smmothed out the plate. I got 5 extra long bolts and stacked it on top of my other butterfl plate. All it does is increase the intake volume. On a turbo thats good. On NA really is pointless. I only did it because i had so many extra parts laying around and my motor out of the car for about half a year.
sam-r450 UP.Browser/6.2.3.8 (GUI) MMP/2.0

you done the opposite of me. stacking the other plate on top of the one that was already there lengthens runners therby raising torque, but hurting high rpm power. props on the butterfly delete but if you want to add peak power pull the plenum back off and take out the plate you added and the one that was already there. If you are building a torque motor longer runners are better. and the opposite for a horsepower motor.

btw... That is a sexy intake plenum!!!

 

Just to clarify so I don't do something pointless:
Taken completely out shorter run, faster veocity, better for top end?

Stacking is only good for turbo applications?

Leaving it in but hollowed out more low end power?

 

yes. taken completely out increases horsepower in high rpms where vtec is at,
stacking is only good for torque and will hurt high rpm horsepower during vtec.
leaving it in but hollowed out hurts low end power and might give you 2 horsepower.
taken completely out will make a much bigger difference than hollowed out in high rpms.

Basically the faster you can move air through the engine the more horsepower you are gonna get. keeping up intake velocity is very important when modifying a intake or a head.

 

Okay I am going to take it completely out after work tommorow. Since there is a gasket above and below the butterfly plate do i need a new one?

 

You'll need a new one. I made the spacers for my intake manifold tonight- i'm just going to take mine out completely as well.