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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I always see people defending the H23s, but I've yet to see anything impressive here. Have I overlooked some nasty builds or are most people stuck in 140-150whp land?
And pleeeaaassseee don't mention Pirates build.....Thats like 0.00001%.

I ask b/c since my Civic got stolen, my hopes of building a Non-VTEC have been flushed down the drain...... :(
 

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i have not seen any other h23 dynos other than what you mentioned

it was along time ago i remeber reading about 14 sec n/a non vtec
lude he was traping at like 95mph..... sounded real close to h22 like
power,,,,i know he had a custom header and cams for it....


i think most people defend it cause of the fun to drive tq band
but the 1/4 mile tq band it is not good at all stock!!!!! a h22 will smoke
one,,, and i have driven them and short shifted trying to stay in peak tq
and there h22 at all


i would geuss if you wanted to get a ported head for it and some cams
and decent header and bump the cr up a bit you could make close to 200whp....
but i have never seen it either
 

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Big power Non vtec's

Trouble is they need more work and money and for most driving a car with a lightweight flywheel, grabby clutch and lump cams isn't much fun although i quite like it!! :smile2:

I just love tuning up the underdog for instance my A20 engine dynoed at 105Kw at the wheels not bad for stock A20A1 block with just some headwork and twin webers on a stock manifold and crappy 2.25" system that was crush bent!!

I have done some more tweeking with the ignition found the tuner stuck in some crap plugs with resistors and have now gained an extra 500rpm on the peak power and more power all over something like 110kw now, and i've yet to get the header design finalized, probably going to go for a long primaried 4-2-1 with 2.5" collector and 2.5" mandrel bent system this should see a really big boost in torque and bhp.

If i were building an H23 firsth thing i would do would be big valve head with 35-36mm inlet valves and 33mm exhaust valves or the biggest ones that i could fit without getting too close to each other!! Haven't looked at too many H23 heads up close and personal. Then get a nice profile on the seats and the heads most likely a 5 angle for those sizes with radiues edges only a little rub over with some wet and dry will do though nothing to dramatic!! Then uprated springs for the cams which would probably be something like 272-276 degrees maybe try a little more not sure what you can get probably not worth going much higher with a big valve head most important thing would be to make sure you had lift increased to around 12-12.5mm then with a little port reworking on both sides, manifold matching, header with matching system, some lightweight internals for rods, piston pins, and pistons, increase bore size to biggest available at least .5mm or 1mm if possible bump up in compression to 11.5:1 or maybe 12:1, and then for the ultimate sin i'd stick on a pair of Weber DCOE 50's :smile2: or for you injection boys i'd have a custom manifold made with some super long runners then put on the webers or ok the ITB's with something like 48-50mm chokes now i think that would run nice be pretty similar to E30 M3 engine!! and their good for 270-300bhp!!
 

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that would run nice be pretty similar to E30 M3 engine!! and their good for 270-300bhp!!
Do you know how hard it is to get an H22 to 300bhp? Let alone an H23. It takes money and few build there H22's this much. Then you have to factor in the part were the numbers are useless.

On a side note, The Birdmans build(HT) made 252whp, on pump gas, on a dyno that read low.
 

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H23 with 300bhp

Yeah and your talking to someone who made an ET1 produce nearly 200bhp so H23 at 300bhp will be a cake walk!! lol!!
The rod stroke ratio and dimensions are very similar so why would an E30 M3 engine and H23 be so different in power?? Engine is an engine at the end of the day if you have the right induction and exhaust coupled with the right headwork with the biggest valves you can get then they should all produce around the same power.

Hell King motorsports got 345bhp from an A20 series engine!! And that's only 2.0 with 12 valves and a single cam!! And my latest build which i posted on here with the super long inlet manifold runners is going to be pretty pokey with a stock A20A1 block with a CR ratio of around 8.8:1 and stock header with crappy 2.25" crush bent exhaust is making 110kw at the wheels when i get my custom race header and 2.5" mandrel bent system going to be looking at around 190-195bhp then I'll drop in the high compression blueprinted block i'm working on which will have CR ratio of around 11.5:1 and the internals will be lightweight with possibly titanium Teg LS rods or at least light weight Karillo K1's with titanium wrist pins and custom designed pistons with customized crowns to suit my 3 valve layout chambers. Should be looking at around 235-245bhp hopefully depends on what i decide to change in the final head design which i'm also working on and getting the cam specs that i need, the grinds i have available are not good enough the duration is ok but the lift is crap for the size valves i'm using, stock valves are 2X 30mm inlet i'm using 33mm and later possibly 34.5mm with exhaust valve of 37.5mm i need lift on the inlets of at least 11.5mm and the exhaust 12.5mm to get the best flow from those size valves, duration i'd like to keep conservative at around 290-295 degrees for now. The 285 degree cam is ok but it's choking on the stock header power is killed at 7k rpm where as it should be pulling strong from 4k and peaking at 8k rpm the main culprit is the header and system but as the CR ratio is so low the blame is partially that as well as lower CR produces more gas to expel as it's not as efficient as higher compression engines. I'll be happy with anything near 250 and exstatic if i hit 250 or higher!! Be nice but we'll see!! And please don't say it's not possible as it is and i have the experience to back it up just takes an awefull lot of time and research of which on just this one engine i've been building blowing up and designing for the last 12 years. I would just love to have a go at a 4th or 5th gen engine i've started doing work on the original B20A and that uses a lot of H23 parts so hoping for a pretty awesome B20A but unfortunately it' won't be as insane as the A20 as the valvetrain can't handle more than 8k revs where as the A20 can!! So the B20A will be a torque monster to match it's insane stroke!! Btw my car weighs 900kg's with liquids in and have still about 40-50kg's to come out yet so couple that with an engine with potential power output of around 190-200bhp thats going to make for a pretty awesome power to weight ratio and better still thanks to a 3G civic forum i've found out that i can fit a quaife or OBX LSD from a 99-00 Civic SI so i can actually get the power down too!! The Et1 engine was running 14.5 second 1/4 miles on Goodyear GDS3's with 195/50/15 size so has still a lot more to come with some wider stickier tyres!! Aim for this year is to get into the high 13's.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Do you know how hard it is to get an H22 to 300bhp? Let alone an H23. It takes money and few build there H22's this much. Then you have to factor in the part were the numbers are useless.

On a side note, The Birdmans build(HT) made 252whp, on pump gas, on a dyno that read low.
Is it really that hard? It just seems like people are lazy.....(Me included) There are plenty of 300whp H series motors out there, but people don't know about them or don't "believe" because they aren't online bragging about it.......I've noticed some of the fastest guys out there have little-no online presence.

Birdman's wasn't non-vtec(iirc 2.35L with JUN cams and RLZ IM).......


rjudgey: Tell me more about KING's A20! Was this something they raced in the 80's?
 

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rj is right and that was what i was hinting at

but street cars they just dont mess with the h23 or the a20
i think it is cool as hell,,,, and motors are very similar when built to
race specs,,,, its just nobody wants to mess with it to much money
but it is sweet as hell when we see something different!!!!
like rjs motor
 

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Discussion Starter #8
rj is right and that was
but it is sweet as hell when we see something different!!!!
like rjs motor
Agreed......I like to see something different too. I was going to boost a non-vtec single cam just to slap around the B series panzies.
A20=2nd gen Prelude and Accords?

Im sitting here wondering where all the H23 owners are at?

Rj: you appear to be the GO TO guy for non-vtec questions. Thats probably the most informative reply I have read in a long time......
 

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Rj: you appear to be the GO TO guy for non-vtec questions. Thats probably the most informative reply I have read in a long time......
No VTEC isn't really much different from VTEC, you just usually don't get as nice a cylinder head....(exception for something like the F22A)
 

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Hella VTEC, y0
 

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I have an H23 before i supercharged it I was thinking N/A that would be the way to do it. WRONG!!, I mean go ahead if thats what u wanna do. To me it isn't worth the money.
 

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^ Alot of Money....

Race gas

Im putting an Alcohol setup on mine, so I can run 91 and put in alot of timing and not have to worry about detonation. = Big power. :)
 

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Vtec or no vtec that is the question

Any engine to achieve more 100bhp per tonne needs a lot of work and R&D K20 does it but has taken Honda best part of 30years to achieve this on a road car. To get an engine to around 125bhp per tonne takes untold dedication or a race team but for some like myself and a few random others this is what drives us on the challenge not the fact that we have oodle's of money or are really bored we just love the challenge of doing something that majority of people believe isn't possible!!

For me Vtec is a great invention it gives people who want a high revving Naturaly aspirated engine the oppurtunity to have one in a mild mannered street car without all the draw backs of having an engine like mine!!

But for me having a Weekend warrior thats a pig to drive around keeps it a weekend warrior and also makes it that bit more interesting to normal people certainly get a lot of strange looks as my car gurgles and spits when idling at the lights or car park!! And then even more alarmed faces when i step on the throttle lol!!

But for any engine to make big power Vtec is uneeded and to be brutal is a waste of time in fact it even reduces the chances of making truly big power from an N/A engine. Reason being is that their is more parts which means more frictional loss's and extra weight!! If you look at all the race builds for vtec they all have the cams and rockers converted for std non vtec types e.g. Buddy club Civic Type-R B16 was converted in this fashion was making over 250bhp with this engine just about driveable on the street but only by someone truly insane!! Like me :silly: Was really a race/demo car to show people just what they could get from B16

Now the secret to any engine is it's rod to stroke ratio, it's CC size, the chamber shape and the angle at which the valves sit in the chamber and the inlet ports enter at. The rest is all irrelevant, even if you had stock valves and the seats are too small to go bigger, irrelevant as you just have new custom seats made as big as you can get in and you have new valves made as big as you can fit in and still get a good seat shape and dimensions. This is the biggest secret the valve size no matter what cams you use the bigger is better it's all about get the most rounded seat and valve head shape you can this is where all the flow comes from, yes if you have valve guides and ramps that are a shit shape and stick right out into the ports than that will hinder but not as much as a bad valve and valve seat!! This can be over come by reshaping, removing or combination of both will work better than either alone. then it's all down to the cams requirements of the power you want to produce combined with the rod stroke ratio no point having really high duration cams if you have a really long stroke it just doesn't work!! But as H23 stroke with a rebore is a pretty good ratio it's only really let down by it's poor valve size and camshaft choices for aftermarket valves. so you get a set of cams that have the duration and lift that you want, increase in bore size and big bump in compression, lighten everything inside the engine that moves and bingo you have a seriously nifty racey engine!! Obviously this needs the induction and exhaust side of things sorting out and only custom header and inlet manifold will do and sorry for all you plenum people ITB's or huge bike carbs are the only true high performance way forward that and they sound mean as hell!! You could literally bolt up 4 harley bike carbs together or fit the ITB's but on a N/A engine raced up with 2.4 CC size you'd be looking at at least 48-50mm choke sizes easy!! Then it's all down to the little touches of perfection like how well you unshroud the valves, how well you blend the seats to the chamber roof, what kind of finish you have on the valve heads, what kind of finish on the port walls and inlet manifold, etc. etc. being very very anal can believe it or not gain you quite a considerable amount even more so on a N/A engine, a little tweek here in one spot might only gain you 1-2bhp but if you combine that with 5 different tweeks in different areas you've just gained 5-10bhp!!! And no i'm not shitting you that is for real!! It's also about how well you hand gap your race rings, what tolerences you use for those, how much clearance on the bearings, how well honed and straight the bores are, how well the piston to bore clearance is done. If all these things are spot on again little additions of 1-2bhp each!! All these things that people just take for granted and over look and just rely on manufacturer specs to be right or on the money well wrong they never are when it comes to building a race engine reason being they expect the engine builder to do all this as to build the best engines it has to be done this anal way!! And the sad thing is yes we may build an engine that has only 2 litre or 2.4litre and it will put down 125bhp per tonne or more but it will deteriorate over time as the tolerences increase from wear but at least we'll have the first few thousand miles of some serious fun and bragging rights from the dyno!! :tounge:
 

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^First off, try breaking up your sentences into paragraphs. I found it somewhat difficult to read.

Second, did you say that bigger valves are always better? It was kind of hard to tell. But if you did, their are many engine builders, with degree's in engineering, that would strongly disagree. The fastest, allmotor S2000 motor, in the 1/4 mile, uses OEM size valves. Why would that be?

I realize that VTEC does in fact limit max power potential, due to more moving parts. But in the real world, few people are going to tune one to this point. But like you said there are people that will; you and me both. I grew up around V8's so naturally I like lopy idles. I'm just waiting to get a different car before I really start to build something. I'm just a gear head, with no motor to tear into...yet.
 

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bigger valves are only as good as the rest of the machinist work. Bigger valves bring in more air, which is generally very good. But you have other things to deal with such as valve to valve clearance which limit what you can do with a head.
 

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Im actually in the middle of building my H23
full T3/T4 turbo build i know not the most
extreme build but in hoping for 300hp numbers
 

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So the secret is big ass valves and ITB's? lol
The secret is larger displacement and an experienced head porter. Without anymore headwork I can tell you exactly how much power I will make because several other builds have plateaued at the same area with the same parts. At some point in time every possible combination or similar combination of parts have been tested. The only variables that can make or break a build now a days are all in the head.
 
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