More hub failures - Alternative rear rotors or brake systems available?

18048 Views 123 Replies 18 Participants Last post by Wheelman_99, Feb 23, 2015

granracing

Discussion Starter · Jul 27, 2010

This weekend at the track, my Prelude’s rear rotor/hub assembly snapped yet again. This was a brand new part and only saw about 40 minutes of track time in total. I need to find a solution for this problem; it’s the fourth time this has happened – ahhhhhh! I didn’t have any problems with the car until I started going faster as a driver. I thought that was going to be a good thing. A few people have suggested that maybe I need ditch the Prelude and get into a different car. I have way too much time, money, and emotional investment to do that. Plus I just had a new engine built and the car does really well. Even after the hub failed, the bearing are still in great condition so it’s not a matter of them failing and causing the issue.

Note: the rotors were brand new and had absolutely no rust on them before. It started raining and I threw the various parts on the ground and rust formed after that.

Replacement source: Honda no longer has them available direct. My last set was from Beck Arnley but just learned they don’t actually make the rotors and just buy them from other manuractures. In other words, one batch they might be good the next not so good. Looking at the rotor, the material does look fairly porous. Tire Rack has Brembo rotors, but several stated that for our cars they too most likely outsource these parts and the quality isn’t actually Brembo’s. I’ve had these before and also failed. I’d like to get steel rotors, but seems like they’re all a poor quality cast. Anyone know a good source of quality rotors?

Treatment of parts: not sure just how much help either heat treatment or cryo treatment would be. Either way, I first need to find a better source of quality rotors. Plus this isn’t exactly inexpensive since I need to swap them out so often.

Alternative brakes? Although not legal in my class, several of my competitors suggested that I see what other Honda brake systems might work. I’m not looking for a performance gain, just not have the hub snap and go into a wall. Do you know of any other Honda rear brake systems / hubs that might work? This might be the best option if one exists.

I’m at a total loss as to what I should do and have a race coming up in a few weeks. Help. :sad:

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rjudgey

· #2 · Jul 27, 2010

rear hubs

Ok 2 things there is a uk make that make very good rotors and are cryo treated might hold up better. Alternative is i could possibly get some rear hubs made up from billet ally but would be a 2 piece design not sure if 1 u could afford this or 2 would be allowed in your class. Cost no idea but i would imagine wouldnt be much less than 6-700 pounds maybe more just random guess i could make some enquries to find out more if this is feasable in ur class.

night

· #3 · Jul 27, 2010

I've been curious too about getting rid of that rear setup but I haven't put much effort into it yet. Maybe I should grab some extra sets if this is an issue. We use worldpac and they have Brembo labeled rotors for cheap. And another brand.. Mountain? I dunno on that one.
Another source we use has OP Parts brand also quite cheap.

What brands have you used besides the 'Brembo'?

granracing

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jul 27, 2010

yeah, 1,200 pounds for two rotors is beyond my budget. But what make of rotors are you talking about? Are there any websites you could point me to? That I'm curious about.

Probably a silly question, but would the UK version be the same as the US?

Brembo and Beck Arnley are the last two sources I purchased from. For the street or not hard track situations, they would be fine I think.

cygnus x-1

· #5 · Jul 27, 2010

So is it only the brake rotor that fails, or the hub as well? I wonder if maybe Wilwood can help you out. They make brakes for damn near anything, and as long as the rotor diameter is the same size as stock I don't think anyone should make a fuss about it violating the class rules. True they may be expensive, but how expensive is having to replace rotors all the time, not to mention the down time and lost races? Wilwood might be able to come up with a rotor that's a direct replacement for the stock part. Couldn't hurt to check anyway.

C|

night

· #6 · Jul 27, 2010

these rear spindle/disk is just about a 1 off from honda

TimO

· #7 · Jul 27, 2010

night said:
these rear spindle/disk is just about a 1 off from honda

these whole cars are just about a one off from honda. there are very few interchangable parts from any other car they made.
its not like the integra/civic era where everything from one bolted onto the other lol

definitly check into willwood tho. the thing i dont understand is how in the hell your breaking them so often. there are plenty of guys who have raced these cars and ive never heard of anything like whats happening to you. are you running some kind of rediculous offset wheel thats putting way too much force on the hub?

3gcvc

· #8 · Jul 27, 2010

AS far as i know the 2g lude is the only car to use discs and taper roller bearing in the rear of a honda so swapping to something else is going to be difficult all the other taper roller bearing rear ends are drum brake maybe those have stronger hubs lol

What i have seen on a 1G civic is using a later model Honda hub EF EG EK DC etc 88 - 01ish with the internal bearings and either the stub OD or the bearing ID is turned down in order for it to fit on the factory stub, Then you can run a standard disc over hub setup like every other honda runs, but not sure what modifications(if any) the caliper bracket may need in order for the caliper to line up on the disc properly.

I think that will be the best solution so suggest searching for articles about converting the rear of a 1g civic to discs.

night

· #9 · Jul 27, 2010

I've thought of that for myself but I would rather be rid of the shock/spring combo as well personally. I'm sure he has more invested in that already though.

3gcvc

· #10 · Jul 28, 2010

night said:
I've thought of that for myself but I would rather be rid of the shock/spring combo as well personally. I'm sure he has more invested in that already though.

That would be a lot of work to convert to another system imo not worth it the Mac strut rear is good, just requires modifications if you need camber you can rod end convert the inner LCA mounting point. Of if your specificaly talking about the shock /spring combo its not that difficult to convert to adjustable suspension back there.

rjudgey

· #11 · Jul 28, 2010

custom rotors

Have u broken the brembo ones? The cryo treated hubs maybe ok but arent cheap especially if shipped from here, the custom hubs could be made by hi spec they are up the road from me so easy to have a word and help with design.

granracing

Discussion Starter · #12 · Jul 28, 2010

there are plenty of guys who have raced these cars

Do you know of any shops that prepped them? When you say raced them, are you talking about pro racing teams? I've wondered if this car was ever campaigned in any pro road racing and I could reach out to them? Just don't know who raced them. There's only one or two other people I know who race them, but they're still fairly new drivers and not putting as much forces on the rotors yet. The Prelude rotor/hub was perfectly fine a couple of years ago and never snapped, but I much slower.

I've wondered if another Honda's rear brake system that uses a hub could be put onto the Prelude? What do the Accord Lxi's use? (I'll search of course.)

Yup, snapped Brembo rotors as well although I'm sure they're not made by Brembo themselves. I'll find out about Wilwood.

I'm so frustrated and lost as what to do with all of this. Thanks for the suggestions and help guys.

RJ - I spoke with someone locally about getting some made, but they said it would be a minimum of $600 - 700 USD per rotor (385 pounds plus I believe). I wonder how much the shop you know about thinks it would cost?

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cygnus x-1

· #13 · Jul 28, 2010

cygnus x-1 said:
So is it only the brake rotor that fails, or the hub as well? I wonder if maybe Wilwood can help you out. They make brakes for damn near anything, and as long as the rotor diameter is the same size as stock I don't think anyone should make a fuss about it violating the class rules. True they may be expensive, but how expensive is having to replace rotors all the time, not to mention the down time and lost races? Wilwood might be able to come up with a rotor that's a direct replacement for the stock part. Couldn't hurt to check anyway.

C|

Ignore that question. I forgot that the rear hub and disc are combined.

Wow. Looking at the failure mode it looks like it was just overloaded and broke. Does this always happen on the same side or on both sides? If it's always on the same side you might check the wheel to see if it's bent, or if the mounting surface is damaged in some way, perhaps not completely flat. I'm sure you've already checked this but I'll mention it anyway.

C|

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cygnus x-1

· #14 · Jul 28, 2010

granracing said:
I've wondered if another Honda's rear brake system that uses a hub could be put onto the Prelude? What do the Accord Lxi's use? (I'll search of course.)

This is a pretty interesting thread about Wilwood brakes on a 3g Accord:

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72621

I think if you had to change cars a 2dr 3g Accord would be about as close as you could get to the 2g Prelude. In stock form they are a little heavier but that can be remedied.

Anyway, the 3g rear hubs use the more standard (for Honda) cartridge type bearings, so they won't be directly compatible.

granracing said:
I'm so frustrated and lost as what to do with all of this. Thanks for the suggestions and help guys.

RJ - I spoke with someone locally about getting some made, but they said it would be a minimum of $600 - 700 USD per rotor (385 pounds plus I believe). I wonder how much the shop you know about thinks it would cost?

Was that for custom machined steel rotors? If you were going to do that I would suggest having the hubs made to use a separately mounted rotor. That way you could replace the brake rotors without having to pull the hub apart. It would make changing the rotor size really easy too. And the Wilwood replacement rotors are pretty cheap.

If you aren't in a huge hurry I may be able to help you with the design on this, and possibly machining too.

C|

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granracing

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jul 28, 2010

Yeah, that was for custom made rotors.

Called Wilwood, they can't do anything. Honda Performance Development is doing some further digging. Maybe they'll find something.

TimO

· #16 · Jul 29, 2010

i cant give you an answer on who exactly and what kind of racing was done but what i can tell you is this
myself and many others raced 2g's on a dirt oval track. its damn rough buisness! we had all kinds of tire/rim options on them and some pretty heavy colisions and even jumps on ocasion. never once did a rear disk snap in the way yours have.

so what type of racing are you doing? obviously its paved road course type racing. but what im wondering is tire type and rim width/offset. suspension setup. speeds ect.

granracing

Discussion Starter · #17 · Jul 29, 2010

You're correct that it's - road racing. I wonder if with the dirt racing, you're not generating the same g forces on the rear hubs? Tire: Hoosier's road racing compound. It's technically a DOT tire, but just has two minor grooves in it to comply. Nice and sticky. Rims - widest in my class I can use are 6" wide. Suspension - pretty soft (racing wise at least). 750 springs in front; 600 rear. Struts are almost to full soft. Speeds? It's really in the turns which I'm sure is most important. Not sure off hand what speeds and degree turns, but it's pretty quick in the turns.

Now also need to deal with two bent Koni strut housings that they don't think they'll be able to help with. The joy of racing an older car which was only made for two years. Fun, fun!

JDM86lude

· #18 · Jul 30, 2010

ok wats up man i have ur problem and soultion fixed. ok check this out i was talking to one of my buddies that KNOWS alot bout metal fatigue. he said a permant fix other then buying quality things is cryogen treating it. cryogen treatiing it is the only way. trust me . also didnt reaD ALL OF IT BUT HAVE U TRIED SLOTED AND DRILED ROTORS JUST CURIOUS.

PS I HAVE 2 REAR ROTORS FOR CHEAP 25 BOTH SHIPPED LET ME KNOW IF UR INTRESTED IN THEM

granracing

Discussion Starter · #19 · Jul 30, 2010

PS I HAVE 2 REAR ROTORS FOR CHEAP 25 BOTH SHIPPED LET ME KNOW IF UR INTRESTED IN THEM

Are they Honda OEM rotors? I assume used?

Honda's racing division was able to locate four of them for me somehow and are doing a search to see if they can find any more.

I'm looking into cryo treatment, HIP / Hot Isostatic Pressing (although am concerned that this may cause the rotor to shrink a little bit and another heat treatment. Lots of good and not-so-good on the webz about all of them.

rjudgey

· #20 · Jul 30, 2010

brake disks

http://www.nitrac.co.uk/

Try these guys not sure if you can get them in USA but this company maybe able to ship them to you. £137 for the pair at the moment.

http://www.motorsportworld.co.uk/

Could be worth a shot i think it's probably a case of you having a poor batch of cheap disks. Hopefully the honda ones or higher quality ones like these or Brembo should be ok. But you are pushing the car beyond it design limits.

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