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Discussion Starter #1
Building a NA B21A1 and am wondering what I will get for dyno numbers. I have done a couple laps on the dyno and not super impressed with the numbers.
Is there anyone that has built a NA motor and written down the dyno numbers? Has anyone broken 150 whp B21A1 with legit dyno papers?
 

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Building a NA B21A1 and am wondering what I will get for dyno numbers. I have done a couple laps on the dyno and not super impressed with the numbers.
Is there anyone that has built a NA motor and written down the dyno numbers? Has anyone broken 150 whp B21A1 with legit dyno papers?
What did you do to it. Because the most you are going to see is about 150whp.
 

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There is a reason you do not see dynos posted up because they are not impressive by any standard.
Unless you boost this bastard b motors are just good for low to mid power and thats it.

You would need to put more than $5k into a bastard b just to break 200whp.

I make around 185whp with my current B20vtec right now. And it cost me $3200 for the swap.

27986
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yeah I kinda know. I did everything to it. But has anyone actually made 170-200 whp NA from the bastard?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Yeah I understand the motor swap is paramount for a higher power application. But with the setup I have I am eligible for collector plates in Canada. If I swap the motor I lose my collector status. I built the motor from the ground up and just put down 157whp on the dyno. I am really asking if anyone has engine specs for a B21 that has pulled more power than that. And what parts and tune they used, cams, compression, intake, cam gear adjustment, etc. If there is anyone that has put down more than that please contact me.
 

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Yeah I understand the motor swap is paramount for a higher power application. But with the setup I have I am eligible for collector plates in Canada. If I swap the motor I lose my collector status. I built the motor from the ground up and just put down 157whp on the dyno. I am really asking if anyone has engine specs for a B21 that has pulled more power than that. And what parts and tune they used, cams, compression, intake, cam gear adjustment, etc. If there is anyone that has put down more than that please contact me.
I do not think you are listening. The answer is NO.
 

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I'm sorry. I didn't realize you know everyone who has built a B21.
I have been around since before this forum was built. I helped to transfer documents from the old Hondaprelude.com forum over to this one to preserve all the information that we build in the early 99-2000's, so yes I can speak to pretty much almost everyone who has ever built a B20/21.

You are asking a question that has been answered over and over again. Its a FAT NO!!!!

To make 200whp is going to cost you more than $5k. To keep it reliable at that level, I can say with certainty is going to be a resounding no.

Have you seen many or any threads on successful B20/21 threads for NA builds? NO.
I put together the Forced induction thread for 3rd gens of the known documented turbo builds of which most no longer exist.

I am not trying to be rude, but you sure are. I have informed you of truth, you may not like the answers but they are correct.
The bastard b is a dead platform. Move onto motor swaps of which I built an aftermarket for.

Or go ahead and waste your money trying to do something that we already all knew was not feasible for low budget.
 

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Stop being mean Sean I started going down this road. I wanted to be the first to break the 200 whp barrier N/A. I think I collected the proper parts for the build. I felt the key to get there was airflow through the heads and intake. Take a look at some of my old threads. Technically I never got there because after all these years my car is still not together and I have a turbo set up but this thread almost makes me want to go and do it. I believe it can be done but as Sean pointed out it might not be the most sound financial decision but if you really want to go down that road - is doing anything to a 3rd gen really a sound financial decision. Do what you want to do.
 

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Stop being mean Sean I started going down this road. I wanted to be the first to break the 200 whp barrier N/A. I think I collected the proper parts for the build. I felt the key to get there was airflow through the heads and intake. Take a look at some of my old threads. Technically I never got there because after all these years my car is still not together and I have a turbo set up but this thread almost makes me want to go and do it. I believe it can be done but as Sean pointed out it might not be the most sound financial decision but if you really want to go down that road - is doing anything to a 3rd gen really a sound financial decision. Do what you want to do.
You know I am not mean, I am just realistic.

He can do whatever he wants but he is still not going to reach that number like he thinks he might.
It will cost more than going with an H22 swap just to reach 200whp.

I know what it will take to reach that and it is not cheap and since the bastard b is so rare these days why waste money on it when even if you do make that hp it breaks down and then you have to spend the same amount of money on another bastard b to do it all over again.

$3500 and you can reach that power level with a stock H22 swap.
$3200 and you can reach 185whp with a B20vtec swap.

Both swaps have plentiful replacement motors and many aftermarket options that the bastard b just does not.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Stop being mean Sean I started going down this road. I wanted to be the first to break the 200 whp barrier N/A. I think I collected the proper parts for the build. I felt the key to get there was airflow through the heads and intake. Take a look at some of my old threads. Technically I never got there because after all these years my car is still not together and I have a turbo set up but this thread almost makes me want to go and do it. I believe it can be done but as Sean pointed out it might not be the most sound financial decision but if you really want to go down that road - is doing anything to a 3rd gen really a sound financial decision. Do what you want to do.

Yeah thanks for replying and moving forward with this thread. So the build is done, Im sticking with the B21 because its numbers matching block and Im putting collector plates on it which requires original motor. Its built, and there was all this chit chat about it being expensive, yes, it was stupid expensive, much more than the estimates. In Canada that motor cost me ~7500 to build. Fully custom forged internals, everything. The airflow you mention, I think I solved by custom modifying a Skunk2 intake mani and TB for a B20. Was difficult to install and tune ( I do not recommend it), but got it sorted.

stlschindler, could you send me a link for these earlier threads? I am hoping to do some digging on whp&torque versus cam settings as that's the last thing to play with. Other than the hondata tune.
What was the highest whp you could get from your build? (if you ever got it together at one stage or another) I had it on the dyno a few weeks back, I was having some intermittent issues with the cam sensor but it put down 157whp. Which I thought was a little low, even for the most hated engine Honda ever made.
 

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... I had it on the dyno a few weeks back, I was having some intermittent issues with the cam sensor but it put down 157whp. Which I thought was a little low, even for the most hated engine Honda ever made.
157whp is where you are going to be at. Welcome to the world of the low to mid powered Bastard B, you only proved me right once more.

I expected you to post that much for this motor, its all been done before. There is no new innovation for the bastard b that has not been already tried.

Here are some threads for you to mull over:

1. Dyno results from my Accord B20A mild N/A, what is your...

2. Dyno day disappointment.

3. dyno results.89 lude si

4. Dyno results B21A1 (Before Toofast's IM/TB)

5. B21/B18 Frankenstein Dyno
 

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Yeah but he wants to maintain his classic car status and the swap would take that away. I applaud the purists. I like swaps. Swaps are cool just look at my signature profile vehicles but so is making 200 hp na. In fact for the 3rd gen bastard b it might even be the coolest. HP & 3rd gen.... shouldn't even hardly be in the same sentence. Anyone of us can buy any number of lame ass 4 door automatic sedans that would blow the doors off even a turbo H22 lude.

He doesn't want a swap so instead of telling how much he sucks and how awesome swaps are we should all be helping him achieve his goal for his lude. I don't believe that 200 na is impossible. Didn't that riced out blue lude dyno just shy of 200 back in the day? I think it had ITBs on it. Pretty extreme set up.

I am all for asking the community to support our fellow luder on achieving his personal goals for his build.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Yeah but he wants to maintain his classic car status and the swap would take that away. I applaud the purists. I like swaps. Swaps are cool just look at my signature profile vehicles but so is making 200 hp na. In fact for the 3rd gen bastard b it might even be the coolest. HP & 3rd gen.... shouldn't even hardly be in the same sentence. Anyone of us can buy any number of lame ass 4 door automatic sedans that would blow the doors off even a turbo H22 lude.

He doesn't want a swap so instead of telling how much he sucks and how awesome swaps are we should all be helping him achieve his goal for his lude. I don't believe that 200 na is impossible. Didn't that riced out blue lude dyno just shy of 200 back in the day? I think it had ITBs on it. Pretty extreme set up.

I am all for asking the community to support our fellow luder on achieving his personal goals for his build.
Thank you, community member stlschindler, the ITBs would be a nuts setup, never heard of this fellow. I just put my soul into the Skunk2 mani install so sticking with it for a bit. Insanely difficult.

There are a few things I was hoping to get some help with. I have read all those forums and searched around and found little.
What about the effects and how to tune the B21 after the head has been ground down quite a bit and the HG custom ordered very thin, versus the cam timing.
I have read a few of the big posts from back in the day and actually chatted with one of the writers. He recommended for the cams I'm running (235deg, .410 lift) and how severely shaved my head is, that I run +1, +5 on the cams for a setting that would be similar to the +4, -4 on stock cams. I noticed a power boost and a smoother cold start instantly, great advice.

Any community members with experience doing this? My motor is running quite close to the valve impacting piston line as I am running 11.01:1 compression and a thin .027" HG.
Has anyone fooled around with this? Or could direct me to a fool that has? Hahaha. The car runs great as is, very snappy with the NA build, sometimes I feel like I should skip first gear and
start in second it jumps so quick. Hahahha

I also would like to challenge anyone that has documented proof of a NA B21 build that can beat mine. I would like to chat with them.

Thank you
 

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Do you have the B21 or the B20 head? Your skunk manifold is probably from an 18 right? I think the 18 is closest to the b20 head.

The 20 and 21 intakes have the same bolt pattern but not the same head port profile placement. Although these intakes are interchangeable mixing them up requires some potting.

What size TB you got?
Fuel system upgrades?
Ignition upgrades?
Tuning?

11 to 1 with your milled head sounds like a solid foundation. 200 na is an extreme number. I think the only way to get there is to do every little nit picky thing. What have you done for your air intake? I know there are some small gains to be had from keeping the heat out of the intake.

It's all so negligible but you have to exploit every single 1% gain for 2-4 hp to get there. There isnt one thing you can go and do that is going to yield a 25hp gain I dont think. This is one of the reasons it gets expensive and is such a challenge.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I used the Skunk2 307-05-0280, for B18/B20 with a 75mm throttle body, not the alpha series, don't think it was out when I purchased. Cant remember, I believe without further custom modification/boring it could fit one of the larger sizes. The intake runners on the Skunkintake were extremely close to the B21 head which I am running required minimal sanding and porting of the intake side... But, the bolting pattern seemed to be offset differently, higher. In the end the intake works great but for anyone reading or who cares it required the mounting pattern to be welded closed and moved about 1/2" up, redrilling/machining all the mounting holes, but I found this way I can use my original intake gaskets.

The intake pipe itself is 3" tubing, so 3" ID which matches my TB perfectly no hangups.
it is just a 2ft long pipe that intakes right at that body air intake on the PS side by battery, battery relocated to rear. It is aluminium and Have not made any moves towards wrapping it with heat tape? Or insulating it somehow? Any advice on doing this?
When I got the motor tuned on the dyno all the fuel system was new, but still stock pump, tuner said that my car wasn't starving for fuel at all, still stock fuel rail...... I can custom fab a fuel rail but don't think it needs crazy more amounts of fuel.
I am looking at doing the COP conversion on the car but right now running original, has anyone fabricated an ideal holding plate for the coils? I have yet to see one........
The tuning was done with a dyno and a knowledgable shop running my Hondata S300, pretty happy with the tune, car runs great.

Not particularly crazy nuts over attaining the 200whp NA pinnacle, but would like to squeeze as much out of it as possible, Im already ~7500$ into the motor, probably more, so money doesn't really matter anymore.

The 11:1 compression setup with the head/pistons/HG is the biggest improvement Ive made so far, I only run 94 octane on it and its not knocking at all, seems great. The head is cloverleafed as well otherwise these numbers would not be attainable with the stock combustion shape.

Thanks for all your help I am finding it difficult to find a thorough NA B21 build forum, doesn't exist? Maybe Ill make one after it all, I have tons of info and photos already.
 

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You are just repeating what Flylwsi did years ago except for the using of the skunk2 intake manifold.
This build you will need custom cams and cam gears, you are already at 11:1 compression so you are not going to get more out of that.

180whp is your max you can do for this motor NA, that was all rumor by the way there was no dyno to prove that Mike the guy with the Blue lude and custom ITB's ever showed so are going off of here say.

I can say so much more but you seem to be committed to wasting the money on making less power for more.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
OK so is there a link for this "Flylwsi" guy, or for this Mike with the Blue Lude, or anything at all?
You keep saying that blah blah blah everyone has done this, but there is no forums, documentation or dynos to backup anything you're saying.

And yes son, I am dedicated to spending more money to make less power, because its my numbers matching block, one day you will understand.
 
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