[Mikeman101]

Just like the description says. It will idle fine for 2 minutes at about 1,500RPM while the engine warms up. The engine's RPMs start to drop slowly, when it gets down to 1,200 or so, the engine starts sputtering/misfiring the RPMs drop pretty quick, then the car stalls. I have a feeling it is a problem with air or spark.

Up until this point I was having trouble with fluctuating idle but it went away after I cleaned and tightened the FITV. It was good for about 300 miles until this crap started happening.

Things I've done to the car recently, replaced theTiming Belt, Cleaned the Intake Manifold, IACV, EGR Valve, VTEC Solenoid screen, and replaced the air filter. I also had an oil change, with tune up while this has been happening (plugs, wires, cap and rotor).

Another wrinkle to the story, is that before I had the tune up and oil change I had 2 CELS. One for left bank running lean and a "P1297: Electric load detector (ELD) circuit low voltage." They cleared the codes during the tune up but it hasn't run long enough for them to be thrown again, so I don't know if they have been fixed.

Any ideas guys? I know there is a lot to consider and that it's a pretty complex issue. But I am hoping there are some Honda Experts on here and/or some really good critical thinkers.

I am getting pretty desperate and I might just garage this POS for another 6 months before I touch it again if I cannot figure this out. I have fixed so much on this car already.



**********Update for 11/05/09***********
On a hunch I tested out my Ignition Coil today because I know that they are problematic in Hondas. Anyways, it tested way out of spec. Across the primary terminals it tested 0.2ohm where it should be 0.64-0.78ohm and tested 1ohm and 12Mohm where it should be between 14.4-21.6kohm. Fuck yeah!

So I over-nighted one in at advanced auto. Hope that fixes it!



**********Update for 11/19/09***********
For Testing Spark: I replaced the ignition coil unfortunately the problem still remained. So I replaced the ICM and tested out the CKP/TDC sensors. That all seemed great. Currently the car doesn't even start or if it does won't stay on for longer than 10 seconds. I pulled all the spark plugs yesterday and verified that they were sparking, which they were. So it's likely not a problem with the ignition system. So that leaves fuel and air.

At the same time I was pulling the plugs checking for spark I also ran a compression test in all of the cylinders. They tested 175-172-174-180, oh yeah! So that looks promising. Valves and Head Gasket should be good.

As for Testing Fuel: I borrowed a fuel pressure tester from Advance Auto Parts, unfortunately as some of you may already know, the fuel rail on our cars doesn't have a schader valve for easily testing fuel pressure. So now I gotta go out and get a big kit to put a passthrough in the fuel line before the fuel rail if I am going to test fuel pressure. My buddy had a Computer-Safe Test Light so we used that to test the voltage on the fuel injector wires. All the fuel injector wires tested at 12V and didn't change while cranking. So that leads me to believe that the fuel injectors are not being triggered.

So my question(s) to the forums (and EagleEyez):
1. Is there an easy way to test for fuel pressure and/or test the fuel pump other than listening to it, because the fuel pump is priming when the ignition is in the on position?
2. What components control/prevent fuel injector triggering (Main Relay, Fuel Cutoff Relay, ECU, Immobilizer)?
3. Is there anything I am overlooking in regards to the fuel system or my troubleshooting steps in general?

[EagleEyez]

Originally Posted by Mikeman101

Just like the description says. It will idle fine for 2 minutes at about 1,500RPM while the engine warms up. The engine's RPMs start to drop slowly, when it gets down to 1,200 or so, the engine starts sputtering/misfiring the RPMs drop pretty quick, then the car stalls. I have a feeling it is a problem with air or spark.

Up until this point I was having trouble with fluctuating idle but it went away after I cleaned and tightened the FITV. It was good for about 300 miles until this crap started happening.

Things I've done to the car recently, replaced theTiming Belt, Cleaned the Intake Manifold, IACV, EGR Valve, VTEC Solenoid screen, and replaced the air filter. I also had an oil change, with tune up while this has been happening (plugs, wires, cap and rotor).

Another wrinkle to the story, is that before I had the tune up and oil change I had 2 CELS. One for left bank running lean and a "P1297: Electric load detector (ELD) circuit low voltage." They cleared the codes during the tune up but it hasn't run long enough for them to be thrown again, so I don't know if they have been fixed.

Any ideas guys? I know there is a lot to consider and that it's a pretty complex issue. But I am hoping there are some Honda Experts on here and/or some really good critical thinkers.

I am getting pretty desperate and I might just garage this POS for another 6 months before I touch it again if I cannot figure this out. I have fixed so much on this car already.

Lets start with the 1st paragraph. I THINK map or tps or fuel pump even. Sounds like too much resistance at low voltage in one of the sensors....when the rpms drop the voltage drops to match but if there is too much resistance it eats the signal and you get a stall. Could be a short in one of those sensors. Could be the fuel pump losing pressure as the idle drops and starving the motor. Just some things to eliminate.

The 3rd paragraph talks about maintenance. How long ago were these things done? What type of tune up parts did they use? Anyone ever check the resistance or ohm test on the coil? Its very possible to be the distributor. A Modus or Verus can check ignition spark and strength.

The 4th paragraph....Id like to know what the P code was that was pulled for left bank lean and personally Ive never seen a P1297 for a load detector in any car. Shoot me a PM tomarrow and remind me to look that one up......Ive got a couple of Honda Gods....one at my shop and one at an Acura dealer close so I think I can get info on that.

Hope this give ideas or direction! Let me know!

[Mikeman101]

Originally Posted by EagleEyez

Lets start with the 1st paragraph. I THINK map or tps or fuel pump even. Sounds like too much resistance at low voltage in one of the sensors....when the rpms drop the voltage drops to match but if there is too much resistance it eats the signal and you get a stall. Could be a short in one of those sensors. Could be the fuel pump losing pressure as the idle drops and starving the motor. Just some things to eliminate.

Oh man, I think you may have a good point about all three of those ideas. I have yet to look at any of those and from the sounds of it they really could be causing the problems. I will have to borrow a Voltmeter and test out the two sensors. Is there a good way to test the fuel pump other than just replacing it?

Originally Posted by EagleEyez

The 3rd paragraph talks about maintenance. How long ago were these things done? What type of tune up parts did they use? Anyone ever check the resistance or ohm test on the coil? Its very possible to be the distributor. A Modus or Verus can check ignition spark and strength.

The full tuneup was done at the Honda Dealership using NGK platinum plugs and high quality parts. They also did cap, rotor and the ignition switch recall but other than that, the distributor is stock I believe.

Originally Posted by EagleEyez

The 4th paragraph....Id like to know what the P code was that was pulled for left bank lean and personally Ive never seen a P1297 for a load detector in any car. Shoot me a PM tomarrow and remind me to look that one up......Ive got a couple of Honda Gods....one at my shop and one at an Acura dealer close so I think I can get info on that.

Hope this give ideas or direction! Let me know!

I didn't write it down and it's clear now but I am pretty sure is was a "Code P0171 - System too lean (Bank 1)." Which would also confirm the fuel pump hypothesis, however my O2 sensor is fouled so I know that my system is running rich.

You are awesome EagleEyes. That is exactly what I was looking for. This is such a great online community, so many good and helpful members! Thanks for the info!

[pIERCE]

20 - Electrical Load Detector - P1297 (low input), P1298 (high input)

This is from Kronns thread he made on the CELs....but it doesn't go in-depth on what it exactly entails. Let me search a little more.

[EagleEyez]

Originally Posted by Mikeman101

Oh man, I think you may have a good point about all three of those ideas. I have yet to look at any of those and from the sounds of it they really could be causing the problems. I will have to borrow a Voltmeter and test out the two sensors. Is there a good way to test the fuel pump other than just replacing it?

Best way is a fuel pressure test at the rail. I can get you specs when I get to work tomarrow.

Originally Posted by Mikeman101

The full tuneup was done at the Honda Dealership using NGK platinum plugs and high quality parts. They also did cap, rotor and the ignition switch recall but other than that, the distributor is stock I believe.

Ignition switch and ignition coil are very different. Coil is mounted by itself next to the valve cover How many miles on the car?

Originally Posted by Mikeman101

I didn't write it down and it's clear now but I am pretty sure is was a "Code P0171 - System too lean (Bank 1)." Which would also confirm the fuel pump hypothesis, however my O2 sensor is fouled so I know that my system is running rich.

That code and what you said is like tearing the space time continuum LOL.....lean meaning starving for fuel as opposed to too rich or drunk if you will.
O2 sensor is the most likely possibility with this peticular code......sensor dropping voltage can cause the computer to lose fuel metering ability..or severly hampering it....ie: the computer cant read the exhaust through the sensor and backs off the go juice.

Originally Posted by Mikeman101

You are awesome EagleEyeZ. That is exactly what I was looking for. This is such a great online community, so many good and helpful members! Thanks for the info!

Fixed the name for you

Im glad to help bro and keep in mind these are some ideas to follow and keep the diag. flowing. Like I said shoot me a PM or update this post and let us know the cause and confirmed fix.

Rep accepted at my OP.

[Mikeman101]

Originally Posted by pIERCE

20 - Electrical Load Detector - P1297 (low input), P1298 (high input)

This is from Kronns thread he made on the CELs....but it doesn't go in-depth on what it exactly entails. Let me search a little more.

Excellent! Thank you, I have been desperately scouling the internet for a good starting off point in troubleshooting that code.

Originally Posted by EagleEyez

Best way is a fuel pressure test at the rail. I can get you specs when I get to work tomarrow.

Awesome, thank you.

Originally Posted by EagleEyez

Ignition switch and ignition coil are very different. Coil is mounted by itself next to the valve cover How many miles on the car?

It's got 125,000 on it. I was thinking maybe the coil but I wasn't sure how to test it and I thought they were an always working or completely failing kind of thing. My girlfriend has an accord and when her coil went bad, her car just wouldn't start.

Originally Posted by EagleEyez

That code and what you said is like tearing the space time continuum LOL.....lean meaning starving for fuel as opposed to too rich or drunk if you will.
O2 sensor is the most likely possibility with this peticular code......sensor dropping voltage can cause the computer to lose fuel metering ability..or severly hampering it....ie: the computer cant read the exhaust through the sensor and backs off the go juice.

I know, that's completely what I was thinking! I already bought a new O2 sensor (precat) and tried putting it in but I rounded the fricking thing even after dousing it with PB blaster and using the exactly correct wrench (a 22mm as I recall, kind of a weird size). I think I will have another go at it tomorrow and if worse comes to worse I will torch it.

Originally Posted by EagleEyez

Fixed the name for you

Im glad to help bro and keep in mind these are some ideas to follow and keep the diag. flowing. Like I said shoot me a PM or update this post and let us know the cause and confirmed fix.

Rep accepted at my OP.

I will definitely keep the post updated and appreciate all your help. Rep added.

[burntmushu]

before you torch your 02 sensor out just get one of those visegrips that are made for nuts lock it in and take it out. the nut is big enough for the vise grip to get a good bite. don't use the plier type vise grip it'll round it off too much to use the other type of vise grip.

[Mikeman101]

Originally Posted by burntmushu

before you torch your 02 sensor out just get one of those visegrips that are made for nuts lock it in and take it out. the nut is big enough for the vise grip to get a good bite. don't use the plier type vise grip it'll round it off too much to use the other type of vise grip.

That's good advise. I will have to try that, my buddy has some vise grips I can borrow.

As for my other problems. I just tested the Ignition Coil and it tested bad. So I am going to replace it tomorrow and see if that helps things. Full details in my OP.

[EagleEyez]

Originally Posted by Mikeman101

That's good advise. I will have to try that, my buddy has some vise grips I can borrow.

As for my other problems. I just tested the Ignition Coil and it tested bad. So I am going to replace it tomorrow and see if that helps things. Full details in my OP.

Your on you way to ryding again...and not walking....good to hear!!!

[acidcrakker]

Wow. Interesting thread. Thanks god for you i am bored at work. 1. Replace your fuel filter and o2 sensor. If your o2 sensor is fouled out(how u know its fouled out without the code is beyond me, unless thats what that one code means for you) but if thats the case your ecu should be running open loop if there is a bad sensor. 2. Once you do that and replace the igntion coil it still runs like crap and u have good fuel pressure, my guess is your fuel injectors are clogged. I had a set of clogged fuel injectors that made the car run crappy and replaced them and all was good.
sam-r450 UP.Browser/6.2.3.8 (GUI) MMP/2.0

[acidcrakker]

Wow. Interesting thread. Thanks god for you i am bored at work. 1. Replace your fuel filter and o2 sensor. If your o2 sensor is fouled out(how u know its fouled out without the code is beyond me, unless thats what that one code means for you) but if thats the case your ecu should be running open loop if there is a bad sensor. 2. Once you do that and replace the igntion coil it still runs like crap and u have good fuel pressure, my guess is your fuel injectors are clogged. I had a set of clogged fuel injectors that made the car run crappy and replaced them and all was good.
sam-r450 UP.Browser/6.2.3.8 (GUI) MMP/2.0

[Mikeman101]

**********Update for 11/19/09***********
For Testing Spark: I replaced the ignition coil unfortunately the problem still remained. So I replaced the ICM and tested out the CKP/TDC sensors. That all seemed great. Currently the car doesn't even start or if it does won't stay on for longer than 10 seconds. I pulled all the spark plugs yesterday and verified that they were sparking, which they were. So it's likely not a problem with the ignition system. So that leaves fuel and air.

At the same time I was pulling the plugs checking for spark I also ran a compression test in all of the cylinders. They tested 175-172-174-180, oh yeah! So that looks promising. Valves and Head Gasket should be good.

As for Testing Fuel: I borrowed a fuel pressure tester from Advance Auto Parts, unfortunately as some of you may already know, the fuel rail on our cars doesn't have a schader valve for easily testing fuel pressure. So now I gotta go out and get a big kit to put a passthrough in the fuel line before the fuel rail if I am going to test fuel pressure. My buddy had a Computer-Safe Test Light so we used that to test the voltage on the fuel injector wires. All the fuel injector wires tested at 12V and didn't change while cranking. So that leads me to believe that the fuel injectors are not being triggered.

So my question(s) to the forums (and EagleEyez):
1. Is there an easy way to test for fuel pressure and/or test the fuel pump other than listening to it, because the fuel pump is priming when the ignition is in the on position?
2. What components control/prevent fuel injector triggering (Main Relay, Fuel Cutoff Relay, ECU, Immobilizer)?
3. Is there anything I am overlooking in regards to the fuel system or my troubleshooting steps in general?

[EagleEyez]

Ok mike I finally got online at work but all of the programs are off since were closing in a few. Let me get home and grab my shop manual and Ill give you the procedure and directions to go.

Give me about a half hour and Ill get back to you.

[EagleEyez]

Originally Posted by Mikeman101

**********Update for 11/19/09***********
For Testing Spark: I replaced the ignition coil unfortunately the problem still remained. So I replaced the ICM and tested out the CKP/TDC sensors. That all seemed great. Currently the car doesn't even start or if it does won't stay on for longer than 10 seconds. I pulled all the spark plugs yesterday and verified that they were sparking, which they were. So it's likely not a problem with the ignition system. So that leaves fuel and air.

At the same time I was pulling the plugs checking for spark I also ran a compression test in all of the cylinders. They tested 175-172-174-180, oh yeah! So that looks promising. Valves and Head Gasket should be good.

As for Testing Fuel: I borrowed a fuel pressure tester from Advance Auto Parts, unfortunately as some of you may already know, the fuel rail on our cars doesn't have a schader valve for easily testing fuel pressure. So now I gotta go out and get a big kit to put a passthrough in the fuel line before the fuel rail if I am going to test fuel pressure. My buddy had a Computer-Safe Test Light so we used that to test the voltage on the fuel injector wires. All the fuel injector wires tested at 12V and didn't change while cranking. So that leads me to believe that the fuel injectors are not being triggered.

So my question(s) to the forums (and EagleEyez):
1. Is there an easy way to test for fuel pressure and/or test the fuel pump other than listening to it, because the fuel pump is priming when the ignition is in the on position?
2. What components control/prevent fuel injector triggering (Main Relay, Fuel Cutoff Relay, ECU, Immobilizer)?
3. Is there anything I am overlooking in regards to the fuel system or my troubleshooting steps in general?

1. Test Fuel Pressure
Relieving
Write down radio presets, disconnect battery, remove fuel cap, use 12mm box end wrench, place shop rag over bolt and loosen one complete turn. (Always replace sealing washers after fuel line service.)

Inspection
Remove 12mm bolt, attach the 12mm fuel pressure adapter nut (part# -90201-P0A-00) and the special tool (part# - 07406-0040001) or equivilent.
Start engine
Measure fuel pressure with engine idling and the vacuum hose for fuel pressure regulator disconnected from the regulator and pinched. If engine will not start...turn ignition switch on...wait 2 seconds...turn key off then back on again and read pressure
Fuel Pressure Specs should be
270-320 kPa (2.8 - 3.3 kgf/cm2, 40 - 47psi)
Reconnect vacuum hose to regulator
Specs should be
200-250 kPa (2.1 - 2.6 kgf/cm2, 30 - 37psi)


2. PGM-FI Main Relay contains 2 individual relays. Located at left side of cowl, 1 relay is energized whenever the ignition is on which supplies battery voltage to the ECM, power to fuel injectors, and power to the second relay. The second relay is energized for two seconds when the ignition is switched ON, and when engine is running to supply power to fuel pump.

If you get this far ^^^ Let me know and Ill post the testing procedures for the relay

The top line I highlighted points to fuel so your going in the right direction. Any check engine light yet?

[Mikeman101]

Originally Posted by EagleEyez

1. Test Fuel Pressure
Relieving
Write down radio presets, disconnect battery, remove fuel cap, use 12mm box end wrench, place shop rag over bolt and loosen one complete turn. (Always replace sealing washers after fuel line service.)

Inspection
Remove 12mm bolt, attach the 12mm fuel pressure adapter nut (part# -90201-P0A-00) and the special tool (part# - 07406-0040001) or equivilent.
Start engine
Measure fuel pressure with engine idling and the vacuum hose for fuel pressure regulator disconnected from the regulator and pinched. If engine will not start...turn ignition switch on...wait 2 seconds...turn key off then back on again and read pressure
Fuel Pressure Specs should be
270-320 kPa (2.8 - 3.3 kgf/cm2, 40 - 47psi)
Reconnect vacuum hose to regulator
Specs should be
200-250 kPa (2.1 - 2.6 kgf/cm2, 30 - 37psi)


2. PGM-FI Main Relay contains 2 individual relays. Located at left side of cowl, 1 relay is energized whenever the ignition is on which supplies battery voltage to the ECM, power to fuel injectors, and power to the second relay. The second relay is energized for two seconds when the ignition is switched ON, and when engine is running to supply power to fuel pump.

If you get this far ^^^ Let me know and Ill post the testing procedures for the relay

You going in the right direction. Any check engine light yet?

Excellant info, I will try and find those parts so I can test the fuel pump's output. From the sounds of it, the first relay in the main relay may be the culprit. I will try and find a main relay I can borrow or purchase in the area, so I can see if that's not it.