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Old 06-22-2008, 11:36 PM   #51
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Okay, so I'm messing around a bit with the whole engine in general. Kinda just doing an overall exam here. I've been taking off the egr assemply and various stuff and checkin in on this thread. So I don't mess it up. haha

I'm curious about the benefits. What about the cons? Does it interfere with the gas mileage?
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:00 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Prelude85 View Post
I'm curious about the benefits. What about the cons? Does it interfere with the gas mileage?
So far, the only con I've come across after having it all complete is a noticeable difference in gas mileage. Before all this, I was getting 34-36 in town and 41-43 on the highway. I haven't had a chance to test highway mileage since doing the removal, but my city mileage has dropped to 28-30. And that leads me to believe that my highway mileage has probably dropped by about the same amount (~5mpg, give or take). Other than that, I haven't noticed any cons. I haven't found a dyno yet, but it actually feels quicker by my butt dyno (but we all know how accurate a butt dyno is... LOL).
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Aren't there like 3 people in Montana?

So that means what, 2/3rds of the population of Montana drive Preludes by my math.
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:35 AM   #53
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ah i see. that's some great gas mileage! Mine used to get around 25 26 city. She's not running anymore apparently i took TOO much out!!

Ya butt dyno's aren't too good. haha I'll see what happens tomorrow.
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Old 06-23-2008, 09:35 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by fullthrottle_man View Post
So far, the only con I've come across after having it all complete is a noticeable difference in gas mileage. Before all this, I was getting 34-36 in town and 41-43 on the highway. I haven't had a chance to test highway mileage since doing the removal, but my city mileage has dropped to 28-30. And that leads me to believe that my highway mileage has probably dropped by about the same amount (~5mpg, give or take). Other than that, I haven't noticed any cons. I haven't found a dyno yet, but it actually feels quicker by my butt dyno (but we all know how accurate a butt dyno is... LOL).

HTH were you getting that kind of mileage? That's like 30% better than the factory EPA estimates.

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Old 06-23-2008, 01:42 PM   #55
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HTH were you getting that kind of mileage? That's like 30% better than the factory EPA estimates.

C|
I'm not sure. I'm thinking that it's because of the airbox mod I did in the beginning. More airflow, more power, more efficiency? All I had done when I went to Wisconsin was the airbox mod, JR spring mod, and an Accel Super Stock coil. And the highway mileage was when I was averaging close to 80mph. I went from Lewistown, MT all the way to Bismarck, ND (about 420miles) easily on one tank of gas. Oh, and that was with our cheap Montana gas (only 85.5 octane)!
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Aren't there like 3 people in Montana?

So that means what, 2/3rds of the population of Montana drive Preludes by my math.
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Old 06-23-2008, 04:56 PM   #56
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Soo.. .the air box mod as in cutting around it? That's insane.

According to TJ the carbs i'm using lacks the springs. lol And ya you're getting some crazy mileage!
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:37 PM   #57
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I'm not sure. I'm thinking that it's because of the airbox mod I did in the beginning. More airflow, more power, more efficiency? All I had done when I went to Wisconsin was the airbox mod, JR spring mod, and an Accel Super Stock coil. And the highway mileage was when I was averaging close to 80mph. I went from Lewistown, MT all the way to Bismarck, ND (about 420miles) easily on one tank of gas. Oh, and that was with our cheap Montana gas (only 85.5 octane)!

That's almost freakishly high mileage. Are you sure you didn't have a tail wind or something? I would imagine Montana doesn't have gas watered down with ethanol, so that would help.

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Old 06-24-2008, 08:11 PM   #58
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Mine will get up to 40MPG on straight highway driving, and does somewhere between 32 and 36 in general mixed town / highway driving.

Somewhere around here, I have all the gas receipts from when we drove to Vegas last fall. I wrote the mileage on all of them, so if I can find them, I'll post a thread with the mileages in it.
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:12 AM   #59
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That's almost freakishly high mileage. Are you sure you didn't have a tail wind or something? I would imagine Montana doesn't have gas watered down with ethanol, so that would help.

C|
I definitely think you're right about the ethanol crap. When I gassed up in ND and MN, I noticed my mileage dropped by a ways. I think it dropped by like 5 or 6mpg. Then when I got gas in WI (without the 10% ethanol), my mileage jumped back up again. Also, with the ethanol, my car doesn't run quite as good. It didn't seem to have quite as much get-up-and-go.
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Aren't there like 3 people in Montana?

So that means what, 2/3rds of the population of Montana drive Preludes by my math.
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Old 06-26-2008, 04:57 PM   #60
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Picture time! Here goes!...

The 3 lines to the valve on the left strut tower...it had a little bogging on steady cruise until I did the lines this way...


This is what I did with the power valve coming up from the carbs...rerouted to manifold vacuum. Doesn't necessarily have to go to this particular port as long as it's straight manifold vacuum...


The vacuum lines/plugs on left side of the front vacuum port manifold...


Left side of the air cleaner...


Right side of the front vacuum manifold (notice only the EGR valve in the background)...


Had to reroute the vacuum line for the heater controls also. Gotta leave the canister in for a vacuum tank...


Better view of the rerouted power valve line. If there's not a plug on the end of the manifold in the picture, the lines on the other side of there can be pulled off also...


Right side of air cleaner...


The two lines to and from one of the thermovalves (the other under the carbs is unhooked and left open on mine). That third line on top is the one I hooked up to the distributor for the vacuum advance...


An overall shot. Not a great pic due to the sun, but it gives a little bit of an idea of how much I removed...



The two tubes coming out of the exhaust manifold I cut off and welded shut, as well as the tube going into the intake for the EGR.

Now, she runs like a champ! In fact, this is the best she's run since I bought her! One thing I did notice, however, is a decrease in mileage. I haven't done the figures yet, but I'd say my mileage dropped from 33-36mpg in town, to about 28 or 29mpg. A pretty drastic drop, but that's due to two reasons. 1st, the power valve opens much sooner running off manifold vacuum instead of being opened by the control unit. A plus side to that, though, is increased power from the get-go due to extra fuel being allowed in! The 2nd reason, it's running so great I can't help but mash the gas at the drop of a hat and assault the green lights with a frenzy! LOL
If anyone has any areas that they need a more detailed pic, let me know and I'll get them as soon as I can for ya!
Wow how did i miss the whole second page?!

I was gonna ask for photos of the finished product and here it is. Beautiful work man, it really is! I can see all the rerouted hoses, it's insane how you did this. If I didn't have to do smog checks I'd defiantly do this.

I finished putting back most of the engine yesterday. I was running it without that damn pipe that connects to the black box by the timing cover. It's LOUD, and it definitely took power away.

I was comparing everything between Judge's pollution machines, and our environmentally friendly yet mechanically painful engines. And I want the UK intake manifold! Apparently the carburetors are different too. As they don't need the hoses coming out of them. i'm curious about underneath those carburetors as well.
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Old 06-27-2008, 10:15 PM   #61
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You and me both man! In fact, seeing pics of Rich's beautiful vacuum-line-lacking engine bays gave me an added reason to do the whole process. I figured if the EDM's didn't need all that crap, ours probably don't either. You're definitely right about the different carbs too though. I also noticed that his don't have the hoses coming out the top and wondered just what differences there are between the two versions on the inside...
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Aren't there like 3 people in Montana?

So that means what, 2/3rds of the population of Montana drive Preludes by my math.
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Old 06-28-2008, 03:05 AM   #62
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U.K. carbs

I'll try and take some detailed pics of them i have a few sets lying around.
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Old 01-12-2009, 08:57 PM   #63
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well i can definitly tell you the lower mileage is due to the economiser jet wich is controled by the "black box of death" wich leans the mixture dure steady engine conditions. applying vacum to this jet leans it out. removing vacuum makes it richer or standard running conditions. as for the us models with allll that emmisions crap....all i can say is thats sucks. i have both the usdm and the cdm models and the carbs are massivly different. they will phisically bolt on the same but internally and externally they would be difficult to match up. the mains and idle jets as well as the economizer are the same, the floats and the cv slider are the same. the fuel passages and vacuum passages are so diff its crazy. i much prefer tuning my canadian model lol
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:19 PM   #64
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damn that looks hella clean now! i am trying to do the same with mine... But i actually found out that bad things can happen, lose horsepower, ect... I have found of few things to replace other things to make it look cleaner and more cool! i will update with pics in a few week... I am rebuild my whole engine from the ground up, Hard as shit! lol
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Old 01-24-2009, 09:33 AM   #65
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well i can definitly tell you the lower mileage is due to the economiser jet wich is controled by the "black box of death" wich leans the mixture dure steady engine conditions. applying vacum to this jet leans it out. removing vacuum makes it richer or standard running conditions. as for the us models with allll that emmisions crap....all i can say is thats sucks. i have both the usdm and the cdm models and the carbs are massivly different. they will phisically bolt on the same but internally and externally they would be difficult to match up. the mains and idle jets as well as the economizer are the same, the floats and the cv slider are the same. the fuel passages and vacuum passages are so diff its crazy. i much prefer tuning my canadian model lol
I would like to get my hands on a set of the CDM or EDM carbs for comparison. If you guys don't have the 3 vacuum lines coming out the top on the engine-side of the carbs that would eliminate almost all vacuum lines that's left on my car. The ones I have left are for those 3 and the power valve and vacuum advance. The vacuum advance I'll get rid of as soon as I can get the ignition converted to the MegaJolt DIS system. If I can get rid of the 3 on the top of each carb I could eliminate basically all the metal vacuum manifolds on the car also....
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Aren't there like 3 people in Montana?

So that means what, 2/3rds of the population of Montana drive Preludes by my math.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:07 AM   #66
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Update time!
Yesterday I got a little fed up with my car surging at 2000-2700rpm and decided to do something about it. I had narrowed down the problem to the control unit or solenoids in the carbs. Wasn't sure which, but thought I could bypass the control unit and eliminate both the control unit and the solenoids.
First step was pulling the control unit from behind the passenger's kick panel. Easy enough.
Then, I had to rewire the 3 solenoids on the 2 carbs. There's one on the drivers side of the drivers side carb, one on the same side of the passengers side carb, and another at the bottom of the passengers side carb.
1st -- Driver's side solenoid. It has 2 wiresd coming out of it, one black, and one black with a yellow tracer. The black one is a ground and can be left hooked up. The black/yellow one needs to have power with the ignition. Simple splice and rerouted the wire to the underhood fuse/relay box to a spot that gets power with the ignition on.
2nd -- Both solenoids on passengers side carb. Both have a single wire coming out (one black/yellow, one green/yellow). Both of those need to be rewired to ignition power also. Done the same as the drivers side carb.

Works and runs like a champ with no more surging! The only downfall is in the way I hooked mine up. Those solenoids only have power with the key on, not key on and engine cranking. The problem I ran into is that I have to give it a quick hit on the gas pedal every time I go to start it up even when it's warm. But I know that to fix it all I need to do is run the wires to a spot that gets power on both ignition on, and also at cranking. A circuit like the coil is on. Hmmm.......
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Aren't there like 3 people in Montana?

So that means what, 2/3rds of the population of Montana drive Preludes by my math.
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Old 05-18-2009, 07:08 PM   #67
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has anyone got rid of all the non-needed lines in the black box for a 2.0 si. if so could u post it in here like fullthrottle done.
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Old 05-18-2009, 10:06 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullthrottle_man View Post
Update time!
Yesterday I got a little fed up with my car surging at 2000-2700rpm and decided to do something about it. I had narrowed down the problem to the control unit or solenoids in the carbs. Wasn't sure which, but thought I could bypass the control unit and eliminate both the control unit and the solenoids.
First step was pulling the control unit from behind the passenger's kick panel. Easy enough.
Then, I had to rewire the 3 solenoids on the 2 carbs. There's one on the drivers side of the drivers side carb, one on the same side of the passengers side carb, and another at the bottom of the passengers side carb.
1st -- Driver's side solenoid. It has 2 wiresd coming out of it, one black, and one black with a yellow tracer. The black one is a ground and can be left hooked up. The black/yellow one needs to have power with the ignition. Simple splice and rerouted the wire to the underhood fuse/relay box to a spot that gets power with the ignition on.
2nd -- Both solenoids on passengers side carb. Both have a single wire coming out (one black/yellow, one green/yellow). Both of those need to be rewired to ignition power also. Done the same as the drivers side carb.

Works and runs like a champ with no more surging! The only downfall is in the way I hooked mine up. Those solenoids only have power with the key on, not key on and engine cranking. The problem I ran into is that I have to give it a quick hit on the gas pedal every time I go to start it up even when it's warm. But I know that to fix it all I need to do is run the wires to a spot that gets power on both ignition on, and also at cranking. A circuit like the coil is on. Hmmm.......
The solenoids you speak of are idle solenoids and the charcoal cannister vacuum solenoid. The idle solenoids require power(the black w/yellow tracer wires), but the charcoal cannister solenoid on the passenger side of the passenger carb is not necessary if the charcoal cannister is removed. All it does is reroute the vapors from the float bowls to either the charcoal cannister(engine off) or to one of those solenoid valves on the back of the air filter housing(engine running).

As far as the three vacuum ports on the upper fronts of the carbs, run hose from the left port on the left carb to the left port on the right carb, then the center port on the left carb to the center port on the right carb, and so on. All they do is change the amount of air allowed to flow around the main needle to lean/richen the mixture. The 3 hose box on the drivers strut tower is for altitude compensation and changes the amount of air/vacuum into these ports. I could see this as useful since the altitude compensator has an adjustment screw/locknut, but someone would have to experiment (be the guinea pig).

I welded most of the excess vacuum ports in my manifold shut so it looks a lot like Rjudgey's. But I don't even have the metal vacuum manifold. In fact, I use only one vacuum port on the manifold for the power valves and the distributor advance. All others are capped/plugged/crossed over to the same port on the other carb.

Think I have some pics in my "Will it work" thread.
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Old 05-19-2009, 06:56 AM   #69
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I tried leaving the charcoal cannister solenoid out of the equation. I ran into a problem with mine though. It would idle great, but as soon as I tried to do even moderate acceleration it would buck and jerk from not enough fuel. I think the cannister solenoid also might have something to do with allowing the float bowls to vent to let more gas in. Not sure on that though. Once I ran ignition power to it, it cured the bucking problem I ran into....
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Aren't there like 3 people in Montana?

So that means what, 2/3rds of the population of Montana drive Preludes by my math.
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Old 05-19-2009, 08:55 PM   #70
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I tried leaving the charcoal cannister solenoid out of the equation. I ran into a problem with mine though. It would idle great, but as soon as I tried to do even moderate acceleration it would buck and jerk from not enough fuel. I think the cannister solenoid also might have something to do with allowing the float bowls to vent to let more gas in. Not sure on that though. Once I ran ignition power to it, it cured the bucking problem I ran into....

The fuel metering won't work correctly if the carb bowls are not vented to the atmosphere when the engine is running. It's the pressure difference between the carb bowl (atmosphere) and the carb venturi that causes the fuel to squirt in. If the bowls are sealed the internal pressure will change as more fuel is let in by the float valve. When the engine isn't running you would want them sealed so the fuel in the bowl doesn't evaporate.

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Old 05-20-2009, 06:47 AM   #71
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The fuel metering won't work correctly if the carb bowls are not vented to the atmosphere when the engine is running. It's the pressure difference between the carb bowl (atmosphere) and the carb venturi that causes the fuel to squirt in. If the bowls are sealed the internal pressure will change as more fuel is let in by the float valve. When the engine isn't running you would want them sealed so the fuel in the bowl doesn't evaporate.

C|
That makes perfect sense! Sometimes it amazes me how I can forget such a simple process. LOL That would explain perfectly why it would buck and jerk under acceleration without having the vent solenoid hooked up. During operation of the engine, the vent solenoid is open to allow the venting so the bowls can stay full of gas and constantly have the level replenished as the gas is used. Then no power with the car off shuts the solenoid and doesn't let the bowls evaporate.
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'87 Prelude DX
Believe me, it's faster than it looks...try hanging with me in the twisties...
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Quote:
Aren't there like 3 people in Montana?

So that means what, 2/3rds of the population of Montana drive Preludes by my math.
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Old 05-25-2009, 07:23 AM   #72
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Another update.....

I did a little bit of vacuum line reworking again and removed the metal vacuum line manifold closest to the carbs. All I had to do was run line #25 on each carb together (the line farthest to the passenger side towards the firewall), lines #24 coming out of the top of the carbs are teed together with the line that comes from the air box (on mine it's #17, but I can't remember if I put a different line on there), and lines #23 & 22 on both carbs are hooked together with a 4-port tee. Cleans up the underhood a little bit by getting rid of one of the metal vacuum manifolds.
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Quote:
Aren't there like 3 people in Montana?

So that means what, 2/3rds of the population of Montana drive Preludes by my math.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:57 AM   #73
Yotsuba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullthrottle_man View Post
An overall shot. Not a great pic due to the sun, but it gives a little bit of an idea of how much I removed...

what is the little red filter for on your oil cover for? And where does the hose that was originally there come from?
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:20 AM   #74
ieatvws4brkfast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yotsuba View Post
what is the little red filter for on your oil cover for? And where does the hose that was originally there come from?


its the crankcase ventilation. the line goes from the valve cover to the air box.
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87 prelude a20T
B18 intake
Homemade log manifold
Stock cam
super 60 turbo with smaller exhaust housing
15 lbs of boost
Stock motor
Swapped 5 speed

13.60 1/4 mile time with slipping clutch
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Old 06-06-2009, 03:18 PM   #75
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I went yanked all that crap out.. When I first did it I left a few things on and it ran like dogs#!t. It wouldn't idle and died when I needed to stop .. Now that I spent a lil more time on it and plugged lines correctly. It stays at an idle and it doesn't die when I hit the brakes...
Thanks for taking the time to guinea pig your car fullthrottle man
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