Modifying a f22 to rotate in the "normal" direction

Bobnova · 06-20-2005, 10:50 AM

I have a 76 triumph tr7 that desperately needs a better engine in it, i'm a big fan of honda engines, so i've been thinking about one of them.
A cheap one, turbo'd to be specific, as that way if i blow it up it's $500 for a new one :P

The issue of course, is that honda engines (not including the f20c(to expensive) and K series (no rwd tranny)) rotate in the wrong direction.

I do know that a F22 will bolt up to the S2000 tranny, so thats not an issue.

The issue is convincing the f22 to rotate the other direction.

So far i'm thinking a custom cam is needed first off, as well as a starter that goes the other way.

The fuel injection wouldn't like it at all, so i'll need to use a megasquirt box or something along those lines.

The water pump is another problem.

Anybody ever heard of someone doing this?
Have any bright ideas?
Know of any other problems?

And don't tell me to use the F20C, if i had $4k to spend on the engine, i would.

88hondapreludesi · 06-20-2005, 11:37 AM

water pump wouldnt be a problem just flip the thermostat in the other direction. and you shouldnt need a diff starter just reverse the polarity of the motor which you would have to take it apart and swap the side that goes to ground to the one that goes to the battery and the one that goes to the battery back to ground. I dunno for sure but the motor would prolly run it might need the new cams like you were saying or you might be able to flip the cap 180 degrees.

Bobnova · 06-20-2005, 12:53 PM

The water pump is designed to pump in one direction, the other way it lack efficiency.
The thermostat isn't a type you can flip, nor would i want the intake to be on the top tank of the radiator.
I would deffinitely need a new cam, no doubt on that one. The starter rewiring is a good idea, thanks!

LUDEacris · 06-20-2005, 04:08 PM

correct me if im wrong...... but couldnt you just get a different rear end where the pinion gear is on the other side??? or what about flipping the axle 180 degrees?? im not well educated on rear wheel drive drivetrain but to me they seem like logical ideas.

Bobnova · 06-20-2005, 06:45 PM

It's possible, i depends on whether the synchros and such in the S2K tranny would work rotating the other direction, i don't know enough about the tranny to say.

slipknot95758 · 06-20-2005, 08:53 PM

you would have one drive gear and 6 reverse gears esentualy

88hondapreludesi · 06-21-2005, 12:57 AM

the synchros wouldnt matter if you just flipped the rear end around. just flip the rear end upside and it will go the opposite direction

flylwsi · 06-21-2005, 02:23 AM

mmmm no it won't.
if you want it it to work the other way, you'd have to do some work in the rear end, and honestly, if you're spinning it ALL the wrong way, it's going to go the wrong way.

you can't just flip the axle upside down with the pumpkin in the same spot, and expect it to go in the other direction.

do some serious thinking about what you're talking about before opening up the flood gates of mediocre ideas...

if you were to take the whole rear end and "turn it around" the input side would be on the back of the car, yes?
so to get it turning, you'd have to turn the 3rd member around, and then you've got the same thing you had before.
6 reverse gears.

you'd have to get the engine to spin the other direction, which would take major reworking, or you'd have to get a tranny that deals with the f22 the right way...

SquishyPanda · 06-23-2005, 06:00 PM

Are there any RWD transmissions for engines that spin the "wrong" way? You could machine/have machined an adapter for the input shaft and a bellhousing adapter.

Or if you got the F22 to spin backwards, you could use some sort of external electric water pump? Take the impeller out of the stock water pump so that the pulley acts as an idler, then put the electric pump inline with the upper radiator hose. Don't know if such a thing exists, though.

flylwsi · 06-23-2005, 08:45 PM

why not just find a tranny that bolts to it and spins the way that the engine does?

but why stuff it in there, why not just do an s2k drivetrains swap?

tsiah · 06-23-2005, 09:04 PM

its all about the green...

2qu1k4u · 06-23-2005, 10:52 PM

sounds like a waste of time and money to me..

why not just buy a newer car with the $ u are gonna put into it

SquishyPanda · 06-24-2005, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2qu1k4u

sounds like a waste of time and money to me..

why not just buy a newer car with the $ u are gonna put into it

Most of the Preludes on this board aren't exactly spring chickens, either. Besides, Triumphs are neat looking, and an F22 would be a good match for its size.
Extra nifty factor for making it actually work

Bobnova · 06-25-2005, 03:34 AM

the s2k engine, by itself, costs $2.5k, thats why its out, i don't want to blow up 2.5k.

The f22 costs nothing, most of the time, 500 bucks MAX for a vtec one.

Chevy small blocks have been using electric water pumps for a while, so that'd work.

Switching to a dry sump system would be a good add-on anyway, and would take care of the oil pump problem.

I'll probably end up just using a 3.8 buick v6, cause it's easy(kits), but i'd love to have a honda turbo in there, ya know?

Anybody ever hear of any other engines that go the wrong direction?
Honda and saab are the only ones i know of, and they're both fwd.

DJ_Mittens · 06-25-2005, 09:38 AM

The Triumph is a small bay. Would the 3.8 even fit, without extending the engine bay?

What about an Ecotec engine/tranny? Though, I don't know which way it rotates.

MrOldLude · 06-26-2005, 08:49 AM

*shiver* Too much headache. If you're going to go radical, do it big. Small-block. You could always consider other japanese rear-drive engines. Like the KA24 or SR20 that's in 240sx's and nissan pickups.

BlackSpeedLude · 06-26-2005, 09:31 AM

^^ i was just about to suggest nissan motors....

SquishyPanda · 06-26-2005, 09:45 PM

The KA24 is a pretty stout motor (it's a truck motor, after all), and there's plenty of aftermarket for it since the drift thing got big.

Picking up a KA24 in good shape out of a wrecked 240sx shouldn't be hard. Just go to the junkyards and find all the ones that have been wrapped around poles and dropped into ditches by InitialD wannabes

But yeah, a Honda motor would have been cooler. VTEC Triumph

But don't put a V8 in there. You might as well drive a shopping cart with a JATO unit strapped to it.

slugo17 · 06-27-2005, 01:46 PM

if id want to mess w/ it i'd go w/ a Nissan motor but i dont think its worth the time

Bobnova · 06-27-2005, 10:48 PM

Buick 3.8 fits in easy, the tr7 engine compartment was built for a buick/rover 3.5 v8.
Someone even managed to get a jaguar v12 in there, though that took a bit of firewall modifacation.
Pretty much every other v8 in existance is far to heavy, and ruins the handling. (buick/rover v8 weighs 318lbs)

The nissan motor is a good idea, i'll look into that, thanks.

Kirk5287 · 07-05-2005, 01:41 PM

here is my idea: instead of changing the way the engine operates, change the rotation of the power put out by the engine somewhere between the engine and transmission this way the engine doens't get messed with and all the timing stays the same. my idea is to put a gear which is connected directly to the engine and have anohter gear connecting directly the the transmission. ok, you put the gears side by side and BAM you've reversed the spin of the engine

Bobnova · 07-06-2005, 02:04 PM

Find me one that can bolt on with less trouble then going the engine way, and i'll be all over it.

Dexter · 07-06-2005, 02:33 PM

Put a RB26DETT in since yall talkin bout Nisaan. Skyline power woot!

2qu1k4u · 07-06-2005, 03:07 PM

http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/listbyengine.html

http://www.triumphcars.com/cmciver/entry1.htm

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...r7+engine+swap

Bobnova · 07-06-2005, 04:55 PM

The skyline motor costs more then a 500hp buick v6 would, not real useful.
And thats a stock skyline motor.

The list-by-engine is interesting, but mostly american stuff that weighs to much, or stuff i've already talked about (the buick 3.5 v8 and 3.8 v6).

Has anyone ever even heard of a honda engine that someones worked over this way?
Or better yet, a RWD tranny that bolts to a K series?

06-20-2005, 10:50 AM	#1
Bobnova Mod of Doom. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Humboldt County (FAR northwest CA, on the coast) Posts: 9,432 iTrader: (7)	Modifying a f22 to rotate in the "normal" direction I have a 76 triumph tr7 that desperately needs a better engine in it, i'm a big fan of honda engines, so i've been thinking about one of them. A cheap one, turbo'd to be specific, as that way if i blow it up it's $500 for a new one :P The issue of course, is that honda engines (not including the f20c(to expensive) and K series (no rwd tranny)) rotate in the wrong direction. I do know that a F22 will bolt up to the S2000 tranny, so thats not an issue. The issue is convincing the f22 to rotate the other direction. So far i'm thinking a custom cam is needed first off, as well as a starter that goes the other way. The fuel injection wouldn't like it at all, so i'll need to use a megasquirt box or something along those lines. The water pump is another problem. Anybody ever heard of someone doing this? Have any bright ideas? Know of any other problems? And don't tell me to use the F20C, if i had $4k to spend on the engine, i would. __________________ --Bobnova '89 2.0SI 4ws(280k miles), '76 Triumph TR7 FHC (63k miles) (I do not accept friends requests from people that aren't, you know, my friends. If you want to talk to me, use aim) To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

06-20-2005, 11:37 AM	#2
88hondapreludesi Preludepower Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Graham, WA Age: 24 Posts: 3,740 iTrader: (2)	water pump wouldnt be a problem just flip the thermostat in the other direction. and you shouldnt need a diff starter just reverse the polarity of the motor which you would have to take it apart and swap the side that goes to ground to the one that goes to the battery and the one that goes to the battery back to ground. I dunno for sure but the motor would prolly run it might need the new cams like you were saying or you might be able to flip the cap 180 degrees. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

06-20-2005, 12:53 PM	#3
Bobnova Mod of Doom. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Humboldt County (FAR northwest CA, on the coast) Posts: 9,432 iTrader: (7)	The water pump is designed to pump in one direction, the other way it lack efficiency. The thermostat isn't a type you can flip, nor would i want the intake to be on the top tank of the radiator. I would deffinitely need a new cam, no doubt on that one. The starter rewiring is a good idea, thanks! __________________ --Bobnova '89 2.0SI 4ws(280k miles), '76 Triumph TR7 FHC (63k miles) (I do not accept friends requests from people that aren't, you know, my friends. If you want to talk to me, use aim) To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

06-20-2005, 06:45 PM	#5
Bobnova Mod of Doom. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Humboldt County (FAR northwest CA, on the coast) Posts: 9,432 iTrader: (7)	It's possible, i depends on whether the synchros and such in the S2K tranny would work rotating the other direction, i don't know enough about the tranny to say. __________________ --Bobnova '89 2.0SI 4ws(280k miles), '76 Triumph TR7 FHC (63k miles) (I do not accept friends requests from people that aren't, you know, my friends. If you want to talk to me, use aim) To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

06-21-2005, 12:57 AM	#7
88hondapreludesi Preludepower Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Graham, WA Age: 24 Posts: 3,740 iTrader: (2)	the synchros wouldnt matter if you just flipped the rear end around. just flip the rear end upside and it will go the opposite direction __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

06-20-2005, 08:53 PM	#6
slipknot95758 Preludepower Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: sacramento, CA Posts: 2,527 iTrader: (21) View Photos By: slipknot95758	you would have one drive gear and 6 reverse gears esentualy

06-23-2005, 06:00 PM	#9
SquishyPanda Preludepower Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Age: 27 Posts: 3,241 iTrader: (5) View Photos By: SquishyPanda	Are there any RWD transmissions for engines that spin the "wrong" way? You could machine/have machined an adapter for the input shaft and a bellhousing adapter. Or if you got the F22 to spin backwards, you could use some sort of external electric water pump? Take the impeller out of the stock water pump so that the pulley acts as an idler, then put the electric pump inline with the upper radiator hose. Don't know if such a thing exists, though. __________________ Red Panda v1.0: Original B20A3 v2.0: B20A5 v2.5: Rebuilt B20A5 (Pretty much done. Idles funny, but runs and drives pretty OK.) v3.0: Under Construction To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Watches, Cameras and Cars. Boys never outgrow their toys. We just find more expensive ones to play with.

06-23-2005, 10:52 PM	#12
2qu1k4u I weild teh ban stik Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Virginia Age: 24 Posts: 7,197 iTrader: (2) View Photos By: 2qu1k4u	sounds like a waste of time and money to me.. why not just buy a newer car with the $ u are gonna put into it __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

06-25-2005, 03:34 AM	#14
Bobnova Mod of Doom. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Humboldt County (FAR northwest CA, on the coast) Posts: 9,432 iTrader: (7)	the s2k engine, by itself, costs $2.5k, thats why its out, i don't want to blow up 2.5k. The f22 costs nothing, most of the time, 500 bucks MAX for a vtec one. Chevy small blocks have been using electric water pumps for a while, so that'd work. Switching to a dry sump system would be a good add-on anyway, and would take care of the oil pump problem. I'll probably end up just using a 3.8 buick v6, cause it's easy(kits), but i'd love to have a honda turbo in there, ya know? Anybody ever hear of any other engines that go the wrong direction? Honda and saab are the only ones i know of, and they're both fwd. __________________ --Bobnova '89 2.0SI 4ws(280k miles), '76 Triumph TR7 FHC (63k miles) (I do not accept friends requests from people that aren't, you know, my friends. If you want to talk to me, use aim) To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

06-25-2005, 09:38 AM	#15
DJ_Mittens Car Audio King of PP.Com Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada Age: 27 Posts: 1,933 iTrader: (3)	The Triumph is a small bay. Would the 3.8 even fit, without extending the engine bay? What about an Ecotec engine/tranny? Though, I don't know which way it rotates. __________________ '91 S 5-spd (B20A5 - Canadian model) - "Der Radioflieger!!!" To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Anytime anyone gets in your face, just take everything they've got to give. If the urge to fight back rises, just remember: What Would Jesus Do If He Were A Peeping Tom?

06-26-2005, 08:49 AM	#16
MrOldLude Preludepower Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Leesburg, FL Age: 27 Posts: 1,181 iTrader: (0)	shiver Too much headache. If you're going to go radical, do it big. Small-block. You could always consider other japanese rear-drive engines. Like the KA24 or SR20 that's in 240sx's and nissan pickups. __________________ *1989 2.0 Si* To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Clean Engine Master Last edited by MrOldLude; 06-26-2005 at 08:51 AM.

06-26-2005, 09:31 AM	#17
BlackSpeedLude Preludepower Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Colorado or Michigan Posts: 846 iTrader: (0)	^^ i was just about to suggest nissan motors.... __________________ '97 Base -> '06 WRX

06-26-2005, 09:45 PM	#18
SquishyPanda Preludepower Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Age: 27 Posts: 3,241 iTrader: (5) View Photos By: SquishyPanda	The KA24 is a pretty stout motor (it's a truck motor, after all), and there's plenty of aftermarket for it since the drift thing got big. Picking up a KA24 in good shape out of a wrecked 240sx shouldn't be hard. Just go to the junkyards and find all the ones that have been wrapped around poles and dropped into ditches by InitialD wannabes But yeah, a Honda motor would have been cooler. VTEC Triumph But don't put a V8 in there. You might as well drive a shopping cart with a JATO unit strapped to it. __________________ Red Panda v1.0: Original B20A3 v2.0: B20A5 v2.5: Rebuilt B20A5 (Pretty much done. Idles funny, but runs and drives pretty OK.) v3.0: Under Construction To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Watches, Cameras and Cars. Boys never outgrow their toys. We just find more expensive ones to play with.

06-27-2005, 01:46 PM	#19
slugo17 DSM: Best mistake ever. Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Hustlin' Age: 22 Posts: 368 iTrader: (0)	if id want to mess w/ it i'd go w/ a Nissan motor but i dont think its worth the time __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. BOOST

06-27-2005, 10:48 PM	#20
Bobnova Mod of Doom. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Humboldt County (FAR northwest CA, on the coast) Posts: 9,432 iTrader: (7)	Buick 3.8 fits in easy, the tr7 engine compartment was built for a buick/rover 3.5 v8. Someone even managed to get a jaguar v12 in there, though that took a bit of firewall modifacation. Pretty much every other v8 in existance is far to heavy, and ruins the handling. (buick/rover v8 weighs 318lbs) The nissan motor is a good idea, i'll look into that, thanks. __________________ --Bobnova '89 2.0SI 4ws(280k miles), '76 Triumph TR7 FHC (63k miles) (I do not accept friends requests from people that aren't, you know, my friends. If you want to talk to me, use aim) To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

07-05-2005, 01:41 PM	#21
Kirk5287 Lude Dude Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 114 iTrader: (0)	here is my idea: instead of changing the way the engine operates, change the rotation of the power put out by the engine somewhere between the engine and transmission this way the engine doens't get messed with and all the timing stays the same. my idea is to put a gear which is connected directly to the engine and have anohter gear connecting directly the the transmission. ok, you put the gears side by side and BAM you've reversed the spin of the engine

07-06-2005, 02:04 PM	#22
Bobnova Mod of Doom. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Humboldt County (FAR northwest CA, on the coast) Posts: 9,432 iTrader: (7)	Find me one that can bolt on with less trouble then going the engine way, and i'll be all over it. __________________ --Bobnova '89 2.0SI 4ws(280k miles), '76 Triumph TR7 FHC (63k miles) (I do not accept friends requests from people that aren't, you know, my friends. If you want to talk to me, use aim) To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

07-06-2005, 03:07 PM	#24
2qu1k4u I weild teh ban stik Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Virginia Age: 24 Posts: 7,197 iTrader: (2) View Photos By: 2qu1k4u	http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/listbyengine.html http://www.triumphcars.com/cmciver/entry1.htm http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...r7+engine+swap __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

07-06-2005, 04:55 PM	#25
Bobnova Mod of Doom. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Humboldt County (FAR northwest CA, on the coast) Posts: 9,432 iTrader: (7)	The skyline motor costs more then a 500hp buick v6 would, not real useful. And thats a stock skyline motor. The list-by-engine is interesting, but mostly american stuff that weighs to much, or stuff i've already talked about (the buick 3.5 v8 and 3.8 v6). Has anyone ever even heard of a honda engine that someones worked over this way? Or better yet, a RWD tranny that bolts to a K series? __________________ --Bobnova '89 2.0SI 4ws(280k miles), '76 Triumph TR7 FHC (63k miles) (I do not accept friends requests from people that aren't, you know, my friends. If you want to talk to me, use aim) To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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