[1funryd]

Originally Posted by JGrove

Function & Form use a twin tube dampener. Twin tube dampeners sit further in the stroke. Because the have more room to move the oil around, they retain their plushness throughout the stroke, despite compression. This allows for a compliant, yet controlled ride. The addition of the dampening adjustment on the Type 2s will of course stiffen or soften the (slow down or speed up) the piston action of the dampener, but it will never be as harsh as a Mono tube dampener, like the D2 and KSports utilize.

Additionally, Mono tube dampeners require that stroke is maintained to operate as intended and function properly. This is why KSport tells you not to lower the suspension using the springs locking perch instead of the dampener body locking perch. Which is bull shit, because that means you can't set race sag; an important suspension adjustment. Mono tube dampeners with remote reservoirs do not suffer this problem. Ya, the 3.2G suspension kits. Although, Twin tube dampeners also do not suffer from this.

The only real bitch about twin tube dampeners is fade. Work them to hard and the dampening oil aerates (foams up) and fatigues, causing the fluid to move through the piston's valves erratically, charging the dampener body with pressure. Basically, they stop working correctly and don't dampen worth a shit. However, you would have to beat them pretty hard. Multi lap circuit race hard, to get them to fatigue. That is why the suggestion for Function & Form is for street use and "light" track use.

In sumation, If your on the fence, but your not going to race the NASA Honda Challenge, Function and Form is going to work great for you. Auto or rally cross? Either. Setting a Time Attack record at Leguna Seca? Ksport Kontrol Pro.

Team, I wasn't trying direct this towards you, just educating, using your comment to tie it all in.

I was curious as to why the Ksports are considered rough and also wanted to present both sides of the coin for all too see.

Here is a response from KsportUSA in regards to the design and performance of the Ksport Kontrol Pros vs the Form and Function. (please note this if for information purposes not to do any harm to this group buy)

"A twin tube damper ... suffers from aeration. While it describes it as something that happens under heavy racing use…the street is FAR harsher on your dampers than a smooth surface track.

Race sag, ... setting “race sag” is simply choosing the working area on the shock. Something you CAN do with Ksports. We don’t recommend people drop the spring perch for the simple fact that most people don’t know how to set it up properly. You can adjust the spring perch for ride height aka “race sag” just as long as you don’t bottom the shock out in its stroke. It’s something that WILL damage a Function and Form coilover as well. If you set up your “race sag” incorrectly you’ll continually bottom out your damper and cause this aeration to happen thus rendering your F&F damper useless.

We don’t try to limit our customer. You can daily drive our Kontrol Pro, and you can race our Kontrol Pro, no claims of “light track use”. What happens when your customer buys a set of F&F coilovers for his daily driver and decides he wants to start racing? He’s got to buy new coilovers because he can only “lightly” race his car due to his suspension. Our off the shelf KP’s have set class records at multiple tracks, as well as provide a very comfortable ride for daily driving (which is something that is purely subjective to the user)..."

Continue from another Ksport rep:

"...

yes we do recommend the stroke is maintained, but that does not mean you have to. For anyone that knows what they are doing can adjust the stroke with no affect as long as they dont bottom out the shock.

and the thing you cant set race sag is just not true. even though thats not the proper term you can adjust it of cource.

why would you buy function form if there are any drawbacks? monotube has to drawbacks. if you want the most comfortable ride just keep it oem.

also some other guy posted this

Life span was something i didn't really consider. Though, the dampeners are rebuildable on the f&f.
Sean's response to the ksports being rebuildable has been 'why rebuild? Just buy new dampeners for 100 bucks a piece.' :-S

Also. Something i left out, he you some how magically take a hit straight to the dampener on twin tube's body, it will still function. Where as on a mono tube, he the body is dented in at all, the piston will stop or get stuck at that point.

Twin tube's are also easier to produce.

it is true if you hit the damper enough to damage it, it will not function properly any longer, but honestly i have never ever ever seend that happen, and i dont see how that can happen. our bodies are built strong enough so that is not possible."

Thank you,
KsportUSA

As you can see there are comparisons to be made but it all depends on what you are using it for, and as stated in the first response, "the ride feel is subjective to the user..."

[xkjnboix]

good nfo ^__^

on a side note from my experiences with FnF (not on the 3g chassis of course) if you are on the same level drop as the Ksports (DUMPED ALL THE WAY) , you still have a WHOOLLLLLE lot of thread left on FnF ( im talkin like at least 6 inches of thread ) to dump even further haha u can tuck 6 inch rims & tires on these, im exaggerating of course, but for what ever reason if you had the urge HAHA (of course your chassis would be on the floor). So if you are looking to dump lower than k's for what ever reason then FnF are for u.

sean has some pix of his car in the ksport feedback thread of different drops he took the time and effort taking, uploading, and posting pix for us (i think those were 17's in the pict not sure). i havent seen pix of someone tuck our 3g on oem 14's or even 15's ( mostly because i havent put forth the effort to search for it. hey at least im honest, im not that curious but maybe u are mmmmmmm o_O? ^__^ ) but ive seen k's low and looks nice none the less, but if u really wanna slam it get FnF.

Also take note that if you are tucking tires then the ride quality will be horrible regardless of what suspension u run. u cant have slammed comfort.

[jdm89ludesi]

Okay I have a question to the OP...are we talking 10 min. buyers total? Or 10 min buyers for each? I want to lower my car so bad and would absolutely love to have these! I have some money set back already.

[JGrove]

Originally Posted by 1funryd

I was curious as to why the Ksports are considered rough and also wanted to present both sides of the coin for all too see.

I don't under stand. I write an Apples (Function & Form) and Oranges (KSport) and kinda Plums (D2) comparo on different products available to us. What coin? What wasn't said? I don't work for Function & Form. There was nothing one sided about anything I said. But if we're going to play hardball....

"A twin tube damper ... suffers from aeration. While it describes it as something that happens under heavy racing use…the street is FAR harsher on your dampers than a smooth surface track.

Nit-pick response: Not all tracks are smooth. Sebring is one of the roughest tracks in the world. Cracks, uneven tarmac in spots. Even Mazda Speedway Laguna Seca, Infinion Raceway, and Irwindale would be considered far from "smooth." However, You are far more likely to pull heavier lateral acceleration numbers (Gs) at a race track then on the street during normal driving.

Also, I didn't mention it, but I will now, aeration of the dampening oil dissipates. Goes away. once it does, the dampener works as designed. I didn't mean for it to sound like the dampener was now junk. That isn't the case. Thus, twin tube dampeners DO NOT have any variation in longevity compared to monotube dampeners.

Race sag, ... setting “race sag” is simply choosing the working area on the shock. Something you CAN do with Ksports. We don’t recommend people drop the spring perch for the simple fact that most people don’t know how to set it up properly. You can adjust the spring perch for ride height aka “race sag” just as long as you don’t bottom the shock out in its stroke. It’s something that WILL damage a Function and Form coilover as well. If you set up your “race sag” incorrectly you’ll continually bottom out your damper and cause this aeration to happen thus rendering your F&F damper useless.

"simply choosing the working area on the shock"...and helping to adjust suspension loading and balance shifting.

"...

yes we do recommend the stroke is maintained, but that does not mean you have to. For anyone that knows what they are doing can adjust the stroke with no affect as long as they dont bottom out the shock.

..cuz if you do bottom, it ain't covered under warranty and your out $100 if it don't work proper anymore. low blow, but hey, bottoming will come sooner or later and the equipment should be able to take it. But he's totally right, you should know what you are doing before setting sag.

and the thing you cant set race sag is just not true. even though thats not the proper term you can adjust it of cource.

Ah, yes it is. Adjust the spring perch down the shock body to induce race sag. Adjust it up the shock body induces preload. I didn't say anything about preload because it never sounded like it was a problem with KSport.

why would you buy function form if there are any drawbacks? monotube has to drawbacks. if you want the most comfortable ride just keep it oem.

The first line is a stab. The second line is bullshit, and I've pointed it out already. The third line is a Robert Taylor-like response.

1funryd's response reads like cock-blocking. Party's on and someone's getting laid, like it or not.

[Dannyk50]

I think most of us have garnered enough from both sides to ascertain the character make up of the 2 being presented, which has been very informative.
Let the chips fall as they are, that will be sufficient to determine how the people feel about it. Thanks also for the time put forth into this.

[1funryd]

Originally Posted by JGrove

...1funryd's response reads like cock-blocking. Party's on and someone's getting laid, like it or not.

Just so we are clear, these responses where from the Ksport team, because I wanted to have them explain the comparison's between their mono-tube design and the twin tube.

So, good information for all to see and make their own decisions.

[3gPreludetuner24]

Damm talk about suspension 101...lol...very good info there sean....lets keep this thread on topic fellaz but damm good debating here from all sides...lol...
SAMSUNG-SGH-T919/T919UVHL3 SHP/VPP/R5 NetFront/3.5 SMM-MMS/1.2.0 profile/MIDP-2.1 configuration/CLDC-1.1

[3gPreludetuner24]

[quote=3gPreludetuner24;2338436]Damm talk about suspension 101...lol...very good info there sean....lets keep this thread on topic fellaz but damm good debating here from all sides...lol...
lets see if this gb is still going on during tax time...im interested in those type 2s...
SAMSUNG-SGH-T919/T919UVHL3 SHP/VPP/R5 NetFront/3.5 SMM-MMS/1.2.0 profile/MIDP-2.1 configuration/CLDC-1.1

[JGrove]

Originally Posted by 1funryd

Just so we are clear, these responses where from the Ksport team, because I wanted to have them explain the comparison's between their mono-tube design and the twin tube.

So, good information for all to see and make their own decisions.

Your absolutely right Sean and I apologize for directing that at you. I just came back from a Holloween party and It was shot-o-clock all night long.

KSport is cock-blocking and for good reason: competition for poor and/or cheap Luders' money.

[xkjnboix]

lol i think if luders wanted to be cheap they would get some tokicos and HP or w/e the combo is on ebay haha. those that are looking at these are saving their milk money to cash in so they wont have to settle for less. they want to get the best the 1st time around ! woot FnF FTW !!
seriously guys post up on your local forum esp those in Cali and florida, one of ur locals have FnF on their civic or teg and will be more than happy to take u for a cruise for a doublt cheese at BK. even if they only have type 1's ull have a hint of what the type 2's are capable of ...

[MUlrich07]

i'd jump on this.. just not about to have basically 300 dollars thrown away if F2 decides not to do this... non refundable deposit FTL!

[xkjnboix]

they arent just going to take your deposit if they decide not to do it. any reputable company who would just drop a project would refund your money but if they were already in production and everyone was in and U yourself decided for what ever reason u didnt want them then ya u should be out some cash. the best thing to do in that case is just finish paying it and resell at the GB price which im sure someone who missed out would gladly take them off your hands.

[MUlrich07]

just sent cnc racing my info... so sign me up on the list y0!

[H22Lude702]

Just so that everyone is clear...it's NOT a matter of IF F2 is going to do this...

The coilovers are already in production, but we are offering them for a special price for the 3G community. They produced these because we told them that the 3G community would support them. They've already invested and begun production, we just need to get a set number of people to keep the pricing low.

-Kyle

[lude89si]

Originally Posted by H22Lude702

Just so that everyone is clear...it's NOT a matter of IF F2 is going to do this...

The coilovers are already in production, but we are offering them for a special price for the 3G community. They produced these because we told them that the 3G community would support them. They've already invested and begun production, we just need to get a set number of people to keep the pricing low.

-Kyle

Thats sort-of good to know. Just want to get them already

[MUlrich07]

Well can we get a updated list?
1) me haha

[xkjnboix]

official
1. xkjnboix (type 2 ) F10k R6k
2.lude89si (type 1)
3. JGrove (type 2)
4. MUlrich07

unofficial interests/addons
5 motoxxxman
6 si90si (holidays which are upon us)
7 H22Lude702 (already has the prototype = ) )
8 secluded luder (its october ur in now)
9 schmitty915
10 Raspinudo
11 207prelude ("poor" but wants in )
12 ejd715 (type 1)
13 thisbejeffe (vacation is over november is uppon us )
14 jdm89ludesi
copy and paste dude copy and paste... -_-;;

[H22Lude702]

Bump!

Well, we have a small list going so far, let's keep it going guys. The holiday season is coming up!

[ejd715]

I still want the type 1's. However, with christmas coming up, is there any way we can just put money down then pay the rest later?

[H22Lude702]

We're not taking any payments at this point, just trying to get interested buyers on the list.

Once we have at least 10 commited buyers, we will move forward with payment.

I'm expecting to be collecting payments around december or possibly early january, but it depends on how many people commit to buying.

PM me if you'd like to be added to the list.

-Kyle

[Raspinudo]

what would be the price to buy a set of type 1's directly from FF?

[H22Lude702]

Originally Posted by Raspinudo

what would be the price to buy a set of type 1's directly from FF?

$630, we're trying to get the price down to $550, however, they're giving us a much better discount on the Type2's.

[lude89si]

hope that this GB goes through, i really want to lower my car. I actually thought that the F&F would sell pretty quick but then again not many people know much from this company. Still want some and for that price you cant beat it.

[KingPaul]

Im thinking some type 2s. If this is up for a while I will be interested. I close on my house december 11th. than 8000 tax credit and tax return.. I will have the cash. what are the type 2s without the gb?

[xkjnboix]

its around 1050$ for type 2 w/o gb its in the previous posts if u read them