Porting/Butterfly removal on a stock IM

MommysLittleMonster · 11-20-2009, 09:37 PM

As many of you know, i'm planning a tight budget, mild N/A build this winter for my 'Lude. I was throwing around some "free hp" ideas in my head today, and the idea of messing with the stock intake manifold.

My question is- would removing the butterfly valves (removing the bar & butterflies, then plugging the holes) & mildly porting the stock manifold be worth the hassle, and has anyone done it before/seen a dynograph of the results?

I plan on getting the head rebuilt (and possibly ported), removing the balance shaft, and getting the car tuned with a VAFC-II- would buying another stock IM (cheap) and porting it be worth the effort?

Thanks in advance, motor gurus.

viper_boy403 · 11-20-2009, 09:49 PM

Unless you want to pull the motor to remove the shafts, just pull the belt off the balance shaft gears. Same power result, but without the weight reduction

Doing what you're describing with the IM is essentially making your own Blacktrax spacer, which will give you gains similar to the last dyno chart on the right side of this page: http://blacktrax.net/products/Intake..._Manifold.html

MommysLittleMonster · 11-20-2009, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by viper_boy403

Unless you want to pull the motor to remove the shafts, just pull the belt off the balance shaft gears. Same power result, but without the weight reduction

Doing what you're describing with the IM is essentially making your own Blacktrax spacer, which will give you gains similar to the last dyno chart on the right side of this page: http://blacktrax.net/products/Intake..._Manifold.html

Well, the motor is coming out anyway so it's not a big issue. The whole top end is coming off, so i figured while the intake was off i would mess around with it a little.

Looks like somewhat decent gains. I'll need a tune FOR SURE if i decide to go through with it.

meanshyguy · 11-20-2009, 10:04 PM

I have an H22 modified like that, I never tuned it when it was on my last build, but for what I see on those graphs it probably is worth your time.

nusdogg · 11-20-2009, 10:20 PM

I'm thinking about removing my stock iab spacer and replace it with a blacktrax one.

H22A_lude · 11-20-2009, 10:22 PM

Their has yet to be an independent dyno compairison of removing the butterfly valves vs the OEM manifold. I'd look into some IM theory before I started messing with plenum spacers and what not.

MommysLittleMonster · 11-20-2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meanshyguy

I have an H22 modified like that, I never tuned it when it was on my last build, but for what I see on those graphs it probably is worth your time.

I think i'm gonna buy another stock IM from another member on here, then fuck around with it. For $75, i don't have much to lose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by H22A_lude

Their has yet to be an independent dyno compairison of removing the butterfly valves vs the OEM manifold. I'd look into some IM theory before I started messing with plenum spacers and what not.

I was reading up on a thread on H-T that Blake posted in two years ago. I was hoping to get a little insight from a few N/A gurus on here, any advice is welcomed though. By removing the butterfly valves, i'm increasing the air velocity quite a bit inside the manifold- but i'm not really messing with the overall volume much.

I will undoubtedly get my car tuned directly afterward, the thing i would be most afraid of is shifting my air/fuel ratio with the difference in airflow over the stock tune. The last thing i want is a MASSIVE rich/lean condition on any point of the map- from what i've read, that immanent.

NavaSoulja · 11-21-2009, 02:07 AM

From what I've heard, removing the butterflies would lose you some low end torque, but your midrange to top end would increase.

H22A_lude · 11-21-2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NavaSoulja

From what I've heard, removing the butterflies would lose you some low end torque, but your midrange to top end would increase.

Maybe, maybe not. You'll loose the butterfly valves that will loose low end torque but also think about the length of runner you'd be getting rit of. That could ether be good for top end, midrange or low end. IM theory is a bitch.

Something to be noted is the fact that more and more people are running modified OEM manifold on their high HP set-ups. But then again, their isn't many options for us H22 guys. I might dig into my OEM manifold and see what happens vs the Euro R.

98vtec · 11-21-2009, 07:32 PM

take the plate out completely.

meanshyguy · 11-21-2009, 07:43 PM

What about stacking up two spacers, people have done it before, some dyno graphs would be nice!

Robert Taylor · 11-21-2009, 07:51 PM

A while back just for the hell of it I installed a y in the vacuum line going to the actuator that opens and closes the valve at the air intake input .
I then ran a vacuum line from that y to the actuator that controls the secondary runners which caused the runners to change over about 500 rpm sooner . After doing this mod , I went for a drive and found that I lost mid rpm power so based on my little experiment I would say don't remove the valve . If anyone else wants to try this little experiment out all you need is 3' of hose and a y connector .

CB7Scud · 11-21-2009, 08:23 PM

i plan on doing this sometime this winter, and im going to plug the holes that the butterfly rod went through with jb weld and port match my manifold and head.

deafy · 11-21-2009, 09:45 PM

How much gain is there with the blacktrax spacers? More volume on boosted setup makes more power or is that applicable to n/a only?

MommysLittleMonster · 11-22-2009, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98vtec

take the plate out completely.

Think that's the best way to go Blake? I was thinking just modifying the stock plate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafy

How much gain is there with the blacktrax spacers? More volume on boosted setup makes more power or is that applicable to n/a only?

I dunno... looks like decent gains. Maybe i'll just blade the stock plate.

98vtec · 11-22-2009, 02:29 AM

im not going to suggest it for no reason...

MommysLittleMonster · 11-22-2009, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98vtec

im not going to suggest it for no reason...

Oh come on, i know you like to post useless information an mislead people!

/sarcasm.

Worth a shot, what the hell. I'll pop off the plate and see what happens. Thanks Blake, appreciate the guidance.

H22inURface · 11-22-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MommysLittleMonster

Oh come on, i know you like to post useless information an mislead people!

/sarcasm.

Worth a shot, what the hell. I'll pop off the plate and see what happens. Thanks Blake, appreciate the guidance.

whats that gonna do without a tune?

marcus81184 · 11-22-2009, 04:14 PM

I removed mine, and ported my stock im, if my numbers meant anything. Free mods ftw.

MommysLittleMonster · 11-22-2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lvlrkmart

whats that gonna do without a tune?

Nothing. I'll be getting a tune this spring for sure.

g-gameslude · 11-22-2009, 07:58 PM

Stacking blacktrax spacers does not increase plenum volume; it will increase the runner length which would in turn move your powerband down a little bit. Remove the spacer plate completely on a h22. Plate stacking would be better for an h23 since they don't rev as high.

MommysLittleMonster · 11-23-2009, 11:24 PM

I think i'm gonna have to be the guinea pig for this one. I may go ahead and buy the other stock intake to play with.

viper_boy403 · 11-24-2009, 12:11 AM

If you pull the plate out completely, do you need to get shorter bolts? Hell, if thats the best way to do it I'll just yank it out tomorrow lol. I have a friend with tuning equipment and we've been messing with our basemaps so it will give me a chance to see how this would effect the engine

H22A_lude · 11-24-2009, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g-gameslude

Stacking blacktrax spacers does not increase plenum volume; it will increase the runner length which would in turn move your powerband down a little bit. Remove the spacer plate completely on a h22. Plate stacking would be better for an h23 since they don't rev as high.

I was under the impression that the spacers were just hollow and increased the plenum volume. Maybe your right though.

Also, check out runners and pulse tuning. The basic way to look at it is like you did, but this is wrong. It all depends on what pulse you tune for. You could be right in this case, but like I said earlier, IM theory/tuning is a bitch.

marcus81184 · 11-24-2009, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MommysLittleMonster

I think i'm gonna have to be the guinea pig for this one. I may go ahead and buy the other stock intake to play with.

Uh... it has been done already.

11-20-2009, 09:49 PM	#2
viper_boy403 Vrooom PSHHHH Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Humboldt County, CA Age: 21 Posts: 4,190 iTrader: (8) View Photos By: viper_boy403	Unless you want to pull the motor to remove the shafts, just pull the belt off the balance shaft gears. Same power result, but without the weight reduction Doing what you're describing with the IM is essentially making your own Blacktrax spacer, which will give you gains similar to the last dyno chart on the right side of this page: http://blacktrax.net/products/Intake..._Manifold.html __________________ - Competition Clutch - MFactory - Prosport - Skunk2 - Hondata - Seibon - H&R- KYB - Tial - RC Engineering - - Energy Suspension - Vibrant - ES Tuning Systems - Aeromotive - BOOSTED 1997 San Marino red base To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. -Andrew-

11-20-2009, 10:20 PM	#5
nusdogg True Luder Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: St.Paul, MN Age: 23 Posts: 307 iTrader: (1) View Photos By: nusdogg	I'm thinking about removing my stock iab spacer and replace it with a blacktrax one. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. 200whp/156wtq To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

11-20-2009, 10:22 PM	#6
H22A_lude Preludepower Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: OR Age: 22 Posts: 2,221 iTrader: (5) View Photos By: H22A_lude	Their has yet to be an independent dyno compairison of removing the butterfly valves vs the OEM manifold. I'd look into some IM theory before I started messing with plenum spacers and what not. __________________ 2000 S2000 - K&N FIPK intake w/ BPI stack, HKS 75mm single exhaust, AUT cooling plate on the way...what next? 1992 Prelude - H22A, CAI, JDM RS-R header, 60mm test-pipe/exhaust, S300, complete Mugen Aero kit, 16" Motegi Traklites, one-peice headlights with TSX projectors, KYB AGX struts w/ Tanabe springs ect...needs a new tranny and the IM needs to go back on...I may continue to part this out

11-21-2009, 07:32 PM	#10
98vtec Gangster White Walls Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Pensacola, FL Posts: 13,036 iTrader: (6) View Photos By: 98vtec	take the plate out completely. __________________ xXx Performance South East Neptune and eCtune Tuner -- UpRev / Haltech / AEM / DTAfast To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

11-21-2009, 08:23 PM	#13
CB7Scud Lude Dude Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 134 iTrader: (0)	i plan on doing this sometime this winter, and im going to plug the holes that the butterfly rod went through with jb weld and port match my manifold and head. __________________ "your cars help you pick up girls, all mine picks up is groceries."

11-20-2009, 10:04 PM	#4
meanshyguy Preludepower Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 897 iTrader: (8) View Photos By: meanshyguy	I have an H22 modified like that, I never tuned it when it was on my last build, but for what I see on those graphs it probably is worth your time.

11-21-2009, 02:07 AM	#8
NavaSoulja True Luder Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Navasota, Tx Age: 20 Posts: 380 iTrader: (0) View Photos By: NavaSoulja	From what I've heard, removing the butterflies would lose you some low end torque, but your midrange to top end would increase.

11-21-2009, 07:43 PM	#11
meanshyguy Preludepower Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 897 iTrader: (8) View Photos By: meanshyguy	What about stacking up two spacers, people have done it before, some dyno graphs would be nice!

11-21-2009, 07:51 PM	#12
Robert Taylor Banned Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 503 iTrader: (0)	A while back just for the hell of it I installed a y in the vacuum line going to the actuator that opens and closes the valve at the air intake input . I then ran a vacuum line from that y to the actuator that controls the secondary runners which caused the runners to change over about 500 rpm sooner . After doing this mod , I went for a drive and found that I lost mid rpm power so based on my little experiment I would say don't remove the valve . If anyone else wants to try this little experiment out all you need is 3' of hose and a y connector .

11-21-2009, 09:45 PM	#14
deafy Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Fort Wayne, IN Age: 25 Posts: 1,405 iTrader: (1) View Photos By: deafy	Re: Porting/Butterfly removal on a stock IM How much gain is there with the blacktrax spacers? More volume on boosted setup makes more power or is that applicable to n/a only? __________________ Turbo 5th gen Status: Out of the garage with OEM lip kit finally. Looks tons better. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

11-22-2009, 02:29 AM	#16
98vtec Gangster White Walls Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Pensacola, FL Posts: 13,036 iTrader: (6) View Photos By: 98vtec	im not going to suggest it for no reason... __________________ xXx Performance South East Neptune and eCtune Tuner -- UpRev / Haltech / AEM / DTAfast To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

11-22-2009, 04:14 PM	#19
marcus81184 Lude Addict Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: MN Age: 26 Posts: 595 iTrader: (1)	I removed mine, and ported my stock im, if my numbers meant anything. Free mods ftw. Last edited by marcus81184; 11-23-2009 at 05:44 PM.

11-22-2009, 07:58 PM	#21
g-gameslude Preludepower Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: central florida Posts: 1,530 iTrader: (3) View Photos By: g-gameslude	Stacking blacktrax spacers does not increase plenum volume; it will increase the runner length which would in turn move your powerband down a little bit. Remove the spacer plate completely on a h22. Plate stacking would be better for an h23 since they don't rev as high.

11-24-2009, 12:11 AM	#23
viper_boy403 Vrooom PSHHHH Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Humboldt County, CA Age: 21 Posts: 4,190 iTrader: (8) View Photos By: viper_boy403	If you pull the plate out completely, do you need to get shorter bolts? Hell, if thats the best way to do it I'll just yank it out tomorrow lol. I have a friend with tuning equipment and we've been messing with our basemaps so it will give me a chance to see how this would effect the engine __________________ - Competition Clutch - MFactory - Prosport - Skunk2 - Hondata - Seibon - H&R- KYB - Tial - RC Engineering - - Energy Suspension - Vibrant - ES Tuning Systems - Aeromotive - BOOSTED 1997 San Marino red base To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. -Andrew-

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