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-   -   B20a3 Carb Adjustments Write-Up and ECU Error Codes (http://www.preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264926)

TripleLude 07-24-2009 10:49 PM

It looks good Guvnah. It is good to see that (finally!) someone else has been able to work on the carbs. I like what you are doing.

I noticed the test on your thermowax valve. It is a good method but you need the water to be hotter than what you have. The valve doesn't change much until it hits about 72*C. It needs to be 72*C to 88.8*C to do much. It is worth trying again if you can get it that hot.

I'd like to see if there is an electronic choke available that we could fit onto our carb system. That could make things easier.

Also, a heads up. You might know about this already. After you adjust the sync screw and tighten the lock nut, re-check the balance of the butterfly's. Sometimes when tightening the lock nut, it will throw the synchronization out. Also, it might be a good idea to clean and apply some red RTV or something to the lock nut after you have the final synchronization. On my car, the lock nut came loose and I barely limped the car home to fix it. After I applied red RTV, the synch has not budged.

The Guvnah 07-25-2009 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleLude (Post 2240456)
It looks good Guvnah. It is good to see that (finally!) someone else has been able to work on the carbs. I like what you are doing.

Cheers TL, "Needs must as the Devil drives!" as the Guvnah's sainted mother never tired of saying. :biggrin: Being skint you've got no choice basically.

Quote:

I noticed the test on your thermowax valve. It is a good method but you need the water to be hotter than what you have. The valve doesn't change much until it hits about 72*C. It needs to be 72*C to 88.8*C to do much. It is worth trying again if you can get it that hot.
Well exactly so TL and I pick that point up in the text. It crossed my mind that it was only half a test as it couldn't be got up to the working temp of 88*C. I did expect to see at least something though but nope, nada!

Quote:

I'd like to see if there is an electronic choke available that we could fit onto our carb system. That could make things easier.
That's not a bad idea :thumbs-up: or just revert to manual. It never bothered me when I had them on my old Brit motors in fact I liked the simplicity and controlability and what's more will vouch that I had far less trouble with them than I've had over the years with auto-chokes.

Quote:

Also, a heads up. You might know about this already. After you adjust the sync screw and tighten the lock nut, re-check the balance of the butterfly's. Sometimes when tightening the lock nut, it will throw the synchronization out. Also, it might be a good idea to clean and apply some red RTV or something to the lock nut after you have the final synchronization.
Yeah I pick that point up as well chap, got it covered.

Quote:

On my car, the lock nut came loose and I barely limped the car home to fix it. After I applied red RTV, the synch has not budged.
Good thinking TL. Ta for that. I've done a similar job on the choke butterflies and will get a few pics up in a while.

The sun has finally deigned to shine on Coventry today so I'm going to be re-installing them now here's the question I need an answer to TL;

If you went outside now and took your air filter case off looked down the carb barrels (engine cold and switched off) what position would your choke butterflies be in?


I would expect them to be near enough fully closed i.e. vertical across the barrels and fully impeding the airflow in preparation for its next start up. Would I be right in assuming that? or do the butterflies only assume their cold start position when the ignition switch is turned ON using either stored vacuum or that generated during cranking?? That's what I need to verify mate.

TripleLude 07-25-2009 11:54 AM

The choke butterfly's are closed (or nearly closed) until the engine temps start to warm up.

The Guvnah 07-27-2009 04:36 PM

Twin Keihins re-installed...
 
Just the choke butterflies to sync. Same principle as the throttles but without stripping off the springs quadrants et al I decided to set them up by eye/feel. As TripleLude noted the settings of these isn't as critical as the front end. The left hand carb is the fixed item and the right hand one has to be matched to this. Only difference is that instead of a pukka screw/locknut adjuster you alter the angle of the r/h butterfly by closing or opening up a metal 'tang'. In my case the gap in that tang needed to be closed up a tad but just applying random force with a pair of pliers seemed a bit hit or miss. First thing therefore was to measure the slot in the tang = 0.080" http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9...ingsetting.jpg I then took the 10thou blade out of the stack of feelers, put them back in the slot and compressed the tang onto that so there'd be no chance of over-doing it. A squint at both chokes told me that it was a gnat's knacker away from being spot on so I took the 4 thou blade out as well, repeated the adjustment and that looked good enough for government work. http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5...eresetting.jpg (n.b. A 'gnat's knacker' is an informal but widely accepted Standard UK engineering measurement roughly equal to 0.25 of a 'tad' or 1/10th of a 'gnat's cock'. Commonly used to express the persuasive index of various weights of hammer!) One thing that does concern me is the state of the choke spindle and its bushings as it passes through the carburettor bodies. There's a few thou free play in all directions. http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9...okespindle.jpg The spindles are of an engineering plastic so I'm hoping that the wear is in the spindle and not the soft alloy of the carb. It's going to leak air into the carb's front end but how significant is the effect of this going to be? The manual suggests that this condition is enough to render the carb a paperweight! (well it would say that wouldn't it?) If this turns out to be serious then I'll just get the drillings re-sleeved or bushed to take a new spindle, how much is a new carb pair?? $3k+?? Scrap the carb...? my arse!! So now they're ready to drop back in. An hour's work (probably half an hour now I know how to do it and which lines go where) and we're just about there. Re-fill the cooling system, check for anything left in the engine bay, then give the engine a 10 second crank to get some fuel into the lines and drillings. Didn't expect it to fire up first crank... ...and it didn't! lol, Time for a strategic 'technical tea break' and contemplative ciggy. (y' just can't say 'fag' on an American forum without getting into complications) Vac hoses! There's an open stub off the branch manifold, its clean end tells me there's a hose somewhere, aha the one that dissappears down between the two carbs to a tee piece where it splits the vacuum to a sprung diaphragm valve on the base of each float bowl. In the process of finding that I discover a few split ends on a few more vac lines. Out with the side cutters and snip them back 1/2" an re-install. Oops forgot the line to the air control diaphragm on the filter box. Ohhhh....kay then. Another scan for stray tools - all clear - and hit the starter. Nope but the whiff of fuel tells me that mixture is arriving in the chamber/s. Doh! of course, no choking, hasn't run for a week and a half, I need to roll the choke valves shut manually whilst cranking it?? I'm single handing it so fish around in my pocket and find a 20mm electrical grommet. I wedged that in the choke quadrant stop which flipped the butterflies almost shut. This should do it... And she lives! Fired up straight away, knocked my estimated tickover setting back on the throttle stop and she's sitting there burbling happily at 1100rpm. Now I can tell that sounds a whole lot sweeter. there's still a misfire in the mix (I'd always assumed there would be more than one fault) but the difference is marked. I gave her a few minutes to warm through and checked that the top rad hose was full of coolant (haven't bled it yet) and took it for a quick spin. Wow! the difference! Now the pots aren't squabbling over fuel they've got their act together (literally) and she's away like a greased weasel. Haha! Right then a few tubes of ale will be cracked tonight chez Guvnah and a toast to TripleLude. Cheers chap. The Guv.

TripleLude 07-27-2009 08:23 PM

Congrats and cheers to success.

I laughed at the description of a gnat's knacker. It's good to see success and another carb lude is back on the road.

jbsoccerman22 08-20-2009 11:04 AM

woww, im glad/shocked to discover 2.0s'

this might be a dumb question but is it possible 2 put a vtec head on our ludes?

TripleLude 08-20-2009 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbsoccerman22 (Post 2260230)
woww, im glad/shocked to discover 2.0s'

this might be a dumb question but is it possible 2 put a vtec head on our ludes?

Sure, with a whole lot of custom work to make it bolt down. Then wiring and ECU stuff. If you want to put a vtec head on a 2.0S and have fuel injection, you would need to do an FI swap. It might be possible to do a carbed vtec if you have a lot of experience with carbs and vtec head swaps.

VTEC is a fancy way or saying 'valve overlap in higher RPMs'. You can achieve valve overlap with an adjustable cam gear and it's a lot less work. :camper:

raliff73 08-26-2009 01:26 PM

I wish I had 10 post so I could see pics

The Guvnah 09-05-2009 05:55 PM

So then; time to get further in and get to the bottom of this misfire. To have a garage mech look this over is going to cost me 40/hour!! and from the blank reactions I've had so far from those who have peered into the engine bay I sense that I could be looking at writing these chancers a blank cheque until they stumble on the actual fault and still there's no guarantee of it being found. So being that I consider everything suspect until it's been proved good I've saved a few shekels and invested in one of these puppies...

Draper 37442 compression tester...
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8...siontester.jpg
Shot at 2009-09-05
Cost me 27 which is probably what a garage would charge for a comp check but this way I get to keep the tool of course. Seems pointless to try and 'tune out' a fault and if one or more of the pots are low then no amount of carb juggling will effectively compensate. Results to be posted up tomorrow if the weather holds off.

JGrove 09-06-2009 01:25 AM

damn, I think that tool should be in every enthusiast's box. Yet, I never thought of getting one. Guess I will then, lol. Oh, and great work Guvnah and TripleLude.

Speaking of which, what should the compression be in a healthy B20a3?

2nd one 09-06-2009 07:10 AM

just throwing this out there as i had running issues with my s model before doing the s / si swap. what i found when i removed the engine was that the intake to carb boot had dry rotted and ripped. i think i saved it. if i did i will post up a pic of it. i don't know for sure if that was the only problem with the running of the car, but i do know it was the source of a major vacuum leak. it actually looked like the previous owner tried to remove the carbs and thats what caused the rip.

TripleLude 09-07-2009 07:44 PM

I always use my dad's compression testing tool. In order to get an accurate reading, you have to open the throttle all the way AND open the choke venturis all the way. If the choke is not open, the reading will be low.

I am not sure what the results should be. My B20a3 has a severely milled head, so the compression is not stock.

Guvnah, what octane fuel have you been using? At the next fill-up, try the highest octane fuel you can buy and see how it runs. Over here in the states we are supposed to run premium (which is 92-93 octane). Keep in mind that there is different octane units of measurement. 93 octane in the states is different from 93 octane in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
Quote:

Research Octane Number (RON)
The most common type of octane rating worldwide is the Research Octane Number (RON). RON is determined by running the fuel in a test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing the results with those for mixtures of iso-octane and n-heptane.

Motor Octane Number (MON)
There is another type of octane rating, called Motor Octane Number (MON), or the aviation lean octane rating, which is a better measure of how the fuel behaves when under load as it is done at 900 rpm instead of the 600 rpm of the RON[2][3]. MON testing uses a similar test engine to that used in RON testing, but with a preheated fuel mixture, a higher engine speed, and variable ignition timing to further stress the fuel's knock resistance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern gasoline will be about 8 to 10 points lower than the RON. Normally, fuel specifications require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON.[citation needed]

Anti-Knock Index (AKI)
In most countries, including all of those of Europe, and Australia, the "headline" octane rating shown on the pump is the RON - but in the United States, Canada, and some other countries,[which?] the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI). It may also sometimes be called the Road Octane Number (RdON), Pump Octane Number (PON), or (R+M)/2. Template:Conversion?

Difference between RON and AKI
Because of the 8 to 10 point difference noted above, the octane rating shown in the United States is 4 to 5 points lower than the rating shown elsewhere in the world for the same fuel. See the table in the following section for a comparison.
The reason why the B20a3 needs higher octane fuel is because of the ignition setting. It is set to 20* advanced, which is very advanced. The fuel injected motors are set at 15* advanced, with 17* adv being the highest setting for safety and requiring midgrade fuel.

So you see...

JGrove 09-08-2009 12:21 PM

Shit. In California, we're limited to 91 octane. Unless you go to Allied Fuels. They have 100 octane pump fuel. It's the only place within at least a 60 mile radius that has anything different. There is some places that carry F&L and VP, but god damn are they expensive.

The Guvnah 09-10-2009 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGrove (Post 2278700)
damn, I think that tool should be in every enthusiast's box. Yet, I never thought of getting one. Guess I will then, lol. Oh, and great work Guvnah and TripleLude.

Thought I was on solid ground with the compression tester but it appears that the die they used in the factory must be getting old resulting in an oversized or otherwise unfettled thread because there was no way it was going down the plug hole !! :rocketwhore: (F.F.S. does anything in this bloody country work anymore? I mean how hard can it be for Draper to correctly form 10mm thread fer God's sake??)
Whatever the reason it would not engage more than a half turn in the plug holes and there was no way I was going to apply anything more than hand pressure unless I want to be picking brass swarf out the cylinders. I did manage to get some kind of seal though so decided to try for a set of readings.

pot 1 - 135psi
pot 2 - 145
pot 3 - 135
pot 4 - 125*

*The abberation on cyl 4 was due to the impossibility of getting a full seal due to the interference from the power steering fluid rail. It just couldn't be aligned dead square and for some reason this plug has always been 'tight'. A tell tale "phhhhwitt" at the top of the stroke whilst cranking must have been that lost 10psi.

The low overall readings were due to the fact that I was single-handed and as TripleLude says the choke and throttles need to be held fully open to get a full (higher) reading. All things considered from looking at those numbers I reckon the compression is good to go and not contributory to the misfire which is good news. I still can't make a definite call on that cyl 4 reading but I'm confident that all is well, what matters is that they are all near enough the same given the restriction of the guage fitting, the age of the car, the fact that the butterflies were closed during the test (which must have robbed the guage of 10psi at least) lead me to think all is well. I am at least reassured by these figures.

As for the fuel grade we have 'unleaded' at 95 RON, 'Super-unleaded' at 98 RON and '4 star' leaded (is this what you know as 'premium'?) at 98 RON but which has been progressively removed from sale but is still available from certain licensed retailers if you can find them. They even have to produce a map for the benefit of the 'classic car fraternity whose cars won't handle unleaded at any RON. I run the 'lude on Super-unleaded as there's nowhere local that does the 4 star jungle juice.

http://www.leadedpetrol.co.uk/list.htm

This afternoon I am gonna yank the carbs again and have a concerted attempt to get the bowls and vac slide chamber opened up and blow these jets through with some carb cleaner and a footpump. I can the get a good look at the integrity of the intake stubs as 2ndOne suggests. I'm just waiting on a call from the motor factors telling me the manifold gasket's arrived 'cause I want that off too.

We'll get there in the end and thanks for the continuing input chaps, it all gets assimilated.

All the vehicle breakers and scrappies I've rung around the country are turning up a blank when it comes to a replacement used pair of Keihins but if all else fails then I have a dastardly and fiendish plan to whack a set of four ganged motorcycle carbs into it. Muaaaaar-ha-ha-ha-haaaar! (twiddles pointy moustachios) This has been done to a 'Lude on two occasions I'm aware of.
Here's one thread I've found...
http://www.preludepower.com/forums/s...d.php?t=264798

My God that's a clean car.

The Guvnah 09-10-2009 08:46 AM

Now here's an interesting feauture on an interesting company...
Bogg Brothers specialise in fabricating inlet manifolds that allow the quad carb rig from a Yamaha R1 to be bolted into Vauxhalls particularly but reckon they can accommodate other marques

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...QpdoTNGr7NHO-g

This really appeals to me and hopefully will let me bin all that ball-ache with the myriad vacuum lines. If I can bin most of that I'd be a lot happier and it would tidy up the engine bay no end.:Rock: I'd just need to figure out what can be binned and what must be retained.

TripleLude 09-10-2009 07:43 PM

M-spec's lude is clean. Like he said, the cam and small carbs are the restrictions. To be honest, quad 40mm carbs are a little too much. Dual 45mm carbs are about as big as you want to go without P&P and bore. If the air intake speeds drop too low, the a/f mixture will have a hard time.

I would do quad 35mm or dual 45mm carbs. If I could, I would definitely change out the cam. ColtCams has three cam grind options for the SOHC. The 2nd option is good for daily driving, and the 3rd option for all racing.

The second generation preludes with carbs can get up to 200HP with the SOHC engines. They are very similar to the B20a3/4.

The Guvnah 09-11-2009 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleLude (Post 2283206)
M-spec's lude is clean. Like he said, the cam and small carbs are the restrictions. To be honest, quad 40mm carbs are a little too much.

I hear that and wondered myself about 'over-carbing' the thing thereby not providing enough velocity through the bore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleLude (Post 2283206)
Dual 45mm carbs are about as big as you want to go without P&P and bore. If the air intake speeds drop too low, the a/f mixture will have a hard time.

Yup, I get that as well, and the picture is slowly forming now. Let me run this past you...
Every second revolution of a 4 stroke engine will draw the swept volume of each individual cylinder through its carburettor. For my motor that'll be 1958cc / 4 = 489.5cc ; call it 500cc = 1/2 a litre.

At 1500rpm that equates to 0.5ltr x 750(rpm div by 2) = 375ltr/min
At 5000rpm that means 0.5ltr x 2500 = 1250ltr/min

So I'm thinking that all I need to consider with regard to potential donor carbs is that they can ensure proper fuel atomisation at all points between these two airflow figures down to the idling/tick over speed. Surely any carb that in its original service had to supply a cylinder of around 500cc and worked within a similar rev range would therefore be a suitable candidate?
Then of course there is physical size considerations, room for filtering, ease of connection to the throttle pedal etc but the big one is all about airflow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleLude (Post 2283206)
I would do quad 35mm or dual 45mm carbs. If I could, I would definitely change out the cam. ColtCams has three cam grind options for the SOHC. The 2nd option is good for daily driving, and the 3rd option for all racing.

Would that be strictly necessary, is there any particular reason that the stock cam wouldn't be suitable. I've got no plans to start maxing out the power I just want a nice daily driver that can occasionally be called on to lift its skirts and deliver up its top end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleLude (Post 2283206)
The second generation preludes with carbs can get up to 200HP with the SOHC engines. They are very similar to the B20a3/4.

200bhp!! erm... in the light of that can I withdraw the above statement... no, no Guvnah... keep it real!:sigh:

jbsoccerman22 01-04-2010 01:35 PM

code 14: Electronic Air Control

apparently has been coming on/off

should i b worried?

TripleLude 01-04-2010 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbsoccerman22 (Post 2392118)
code 14: Electronic Air Control

apparently has been coming on/off

should i b worried?

Where there's a CEL and code, there's a problem.

Check it out I went and linked the manual pages you need for the EACV.
http://media.honda.co.uk/car/owner/m...f100/6-109.pdf

That's an easy one to troubleshoot compared to some of the other parts.

1990hondaprelude 01-19-2010 07:11 PM

thanks for the best info i found on this carb car i had a low rpm reading

Preluded 03-09-2010 08:43 AM

Hi everyone, I'm very glad to find you, B20A3 people :smile: I read the whole thread and I registered because of it :) Anyway, I have a '90 Prelude S (Ex), the facelift version with B20A3 dual carb engine originally bought from Germany with german manual and carb scheme sticker under the hood (I'm mentioning that for The Guvnah in relation to his European/American uncertainty of engine numbers). My Lude is currently in Bulgaria because that's where I'm from, so please excuse me for being slow with the understanding of some technical words, English is not my native language (and my knowledge on Preludes is not yet very deep as well). Much respect especially to TripleLude and The Guvnah - your pics helped me a lot in getting along with my car :) I have a question though.
I have the common high rev cold idle issue too. It's very annoying to me especially now in the winter with temp around 0C it starts directly at 2000 and in between changing gears while in neutral *sometimes* it bursts even to 3000-3200 for few seconds and then back to 2000. It takes like 30 MINUTES!!! to decrease to the normal 800-900 rpm (usually in heavy traffic driving conditions). So I'm fed up and ready to turn some screws - TripleLude replied to ambiorix (with similar problem) to try the "fast idle screw", but shouldn't it be the "choke adjust screw"?
And aren't the screws just adjusting the consequences of something not working properly instead of finding the source of the problem?

One more thing not connected to the first issue - I saw an ad of a dual carb 3gen Prelude with 4WS. Is there a factory version of B20A3 with 4WS?

TripleLude 03-09-2010 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preluded (Post 2450579)
Hi everyone, I'm very glad to find you, B20A3 people :smile: I read the whole thread and I registered because of it :) Anyway, I have a '90 Prelude S (Ex), the facelift version with B20A3 dual carb engine originally bought from Germany with german manual and carb scheme sticker under the hood (I'm mentioning that for The Guvnah in relation to his European/American uncertainty of engine numbers). My Lude is currently in Bulgaria because that's where I'm from, so please excuse me for being slow with the understanding of some technical words, English is not my native language (and my knowledge on Preludes is not yet very deep as well). Much respect especially to TripleLude and The Guvnah - your pics helped me a lot in getting along with my car :) I have a question though.
I have the common high rev cold idle issue too. It's very annoying to me especially now in the winter with temp around 0C it starts directly at 2000 and in between changing gears while in neutral *sometimes* it bursts even to 3000-3200 for few seconds and then back to 2000. It takes like 30 MINUTES!!! to decrease to the normal 800-900 rpm (usually in heavy traffic driving conditions). So I'm fed up and ready to turn some screws - TripleLude replied to ambiorix (with similar problem) to try the "fast idle screw", but shouldn't it be the "choke adjust screw"?
And aren't the screws just adjusting the consequences of something not working properly instead of finding the source of the problem?

One more thing not connected to the first issue - I saw an ad of a dual carb 3gen Prelude with 4WS. Is there a factory version of B20A3 with 4WS?

When the engine is cold, how easy is it to start? If you have trouble starting the car from a dead cold, you would want to start with the choke adjustment screw. It is possible to manipulate the cold idle with the choke adjustment screw, but it can also have consequences.
If the choke is increased too far, it may choke the engine even when warmed up. Basically, the choke would never fully disengage. I struggled with this problem when I first started learning about the carbs and tuning.
If the choke is decreased too far, you will have trouble starting the car when the engine is cold. I learned this the hard way too. It can leave you stranded unless you know how to adjust it on the spot.

It's always better to find the source of the problem. There are cases where the carbs are really old and things like the jets may not flow fuel like they did when first tuned. Or possibly the thermowax valve isn't expanding to spec. It's always better to rebuild the carbs, but then you will likely have to re-tune them anyway.

In your case: Make sure your car has had a recent tune-up. There are two fuel filters to replace. Valve lash adjustment, 88.8*C thermostat, etc. Then look for any obvious signs of a problem. Check engine light, vacuum line damage, dirty carb springs and levers, etc. If everything is ok, then focus on tuning the carbs a little. Adjust the cold idle screw. If you find a problem later, you can always turn it back up.

post back your feedback is appreciated.

Preluded 03-09-2010 11:58 AM

Thanks for your your quick reply. Cold engine starts extremely easy and fast but with one small detail - I need to tap the gas pedal once (with key on contact) before I start ignition (I guess this pumps gas to the carbs). So I guess I'll try to experiment with the choke screw. Everything else from what you mentioned as a tune-up is ok, I believe, except for the second fuel filter? I only replaced the one in the rear left side of the car, next to the tank :blush:

Luude91 06-22-2010 07:27 PM

luude help
 
Hey ya'll

I have a 91 lude, and "she" came with baggage. I inheritated the smokin (which got fixed). I had timing issues - tha got fixed and now my latest issues are Hhc ppm 361 and standard is 220 in Joizy. I also got engine lite on which saw is 9blinks (cyl sensor) and 4 blinks is tdc/crank sensor. where are they in car and where do i buy the sensors? thanks

TripleLude 06-22-2010 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preluded (Post 2450732)
Thanks for your your quick reply. Cold engine starts extremely easy and fast but with one small detail - I need to tap the gas pedal once (with key on contact) before I start ignition (I guess this pumps gas to the carbs). So I guess I'll try to experiment with the choke screw. Everything else from what you mentioned as a tune-up is ok, I believe, except for the second fuel filter? I only replaced the one in the rear left side of the car, next to the tank :blush:

The carb Preludes, yes it's normal. You have to depress the gas pedal 100% then release before starting. I guess you didn't get the owners manual when you bought it. Most carbed cars are like this, but fuel injected cars are generally not like this. No worries and doesn't sound like an adjustment problem at all. (late replay but I just now saw it)


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